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brndnms <brndnms@bellsouth.net> wrote:

At 12:11 PM 2/24/2005, Jacob Israel wrote:

 

Brandon,
 
You HATE the Word of God, don't you?

On the contrary!  I love it!  It seems it's you that hates it as you are constantly trying to change it.

 

You wrote:
 

"True!  But the subject was speaking in tongues in v. 34."

 

No.  The subject about "speaking" never changed throughout the entire chapter. 

And that subject was tongues.

 

Note that in 1 Chronicles 14, both prophesy and speaking in tongues are referred to as "speaketh" ["laleo", Strong's #2980] and that both prophesy and tongues are referred to 14 times.  The subject is not tongues, but "laleo", or speaking, and the different manners of speaking.

 

Paul specifically stated throughout this chapter that "speaking" by prophesying was preferable to "speaking" in tongues.  He continually referred to both as "speaking".  Even though speaking in tongues was not prohibited, it was restricted in some ways:
1Cr 14:39
 

 

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

 

Paul calls BOTH "speaking":
1Cr 14:3
 

 

But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

They are!  But tongues is the subject and prophesying is only contrasted to it.  
 

Not only are tongues not the subject, but the point of the entire chapter is that speaking by prophesy is preferable over speaking in tongues:

1Cr 14:4 He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1Cr 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongue, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongue ...

1Cr 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

1Cr 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue.

1Cr 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

 

 

He specifically says that women CANNOT speak:
 
1Cr 14:34
 

 

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

No he doesn't.  As you can see Paul is saying "allow your women/wives to be in silence..."   It seems that some husbands were not doing that.  This is addressed, not to women, but to men.  They were shirking their duty obviously and having their wives do their responsibility.  The subject was speaking tongues and they were the ones to do it.  It was their duty.
 

 

BUT, this says "but [(women) are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law".  It's the women not the men who're commanded to be under obedience "as also saith the law".
 

And he specifically said that men CAN speak:
 

1Cr 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

But in v. 38 they are not to speak without an interpreter.  Do you have an interpreter when you speak?
 

When I speak in tongues [read: a foreign language], yes, I do have an interpreter.  But men do not need an interpreter when they speak by prophesy.  And neither do women--because they're not allowed to speak by tongues nor prophesy.

 

In these two verses, Paul contrasts "ei tis" [#1536] "any man", with "gune" [#1135] "a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow".

No he doesn't!  v.35 clearly shows that the man is the husband of the woman.  Therefore the context shows that only married women are spoken of here because only husbands were allowing their wives to do their duty.
 

Here again is the definition of "gune" from which "women" was translated:

1) a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow

2) a wife

a) of a betrothed woman

And here again are nine different translators who all agreed that it means "women" and not "wives":

NLT - 1Cr 14:34 -	Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says. New Living Translation � 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust
NKJV - 1Cr 14:34 -	Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. New King James Version � 1982 Thomas Nelson
NASB - 1Cr 14:34 -	The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. New American Standard Bible � 1995 Lockman Foundation
RSV - 1Cr 14:34 -	the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. Revised Standard Version � 1947, 1952.
Webster - 1Cr 14:34 -	Let your women keep silence in the churches; for it is not permitted to them to speak: but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. Noah Webster Version 1833 Info
Young - 1Cr 14:34 -	Your women in the assemblies let them be silent, for it hath not been permitted to them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith; Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info
Darby - 1Cr 14:34 -	Let [your] women be silent in the assemblies, for it is not permitted to them to speak; but to be in subjection, as the law also says. J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info
ASV - 1Cr 14:34 -	let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. American Standard Version 1901 Info
Vulgate - 1Cr 14:34 -	mulieres in ecclesiis taceant non enim permittitur eis loqui sed subditas esse sicut et lex dicit Jerome's Latin Vulgate 405 A.D. Info

 

 

 

 

Men can speak by either prophesying or speaking in tongues, but women cannot

Paul says ALL could prophesy (1 Cor 14:31).  

 

No, Paul says that ONLY men can prophesy in the "ekklesia", and that "all" may prophesy" "ONE BY ONE":

1Cr 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

 

 

 

and also must "be under obedience, as also saith the law [read: Torah]".

So show me the Law in the torah that says a woman cannot speak.

 

What part of the Torah says that, Brandon? 

That's what I'm asking you to show me John.  Of course you can't show any such verse because there is none.

 

Or do you also believe Paul was a false apostle

No, I just believe  you are a false teacher and twist Paul's writings to your own destruction.

 

and just made this up about women being "under obedience"?

If anyone made up anything it's you and the "law" that says women can't speak in the ekklesia.

 

 Which chapter and verse is Paul quoting here?

He's not!  But you can prove me wrong by showing he is.

 

Let's compare what you write to what Paul wrote:

1Cr 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Do you deny that Paul claims that "the law" also says that women are commanded to be under obedience?