Chertoff: 'Expel All Illegals' More in Communities Cost of Removing Illegal Residents: $206 Billion! Illegal Immigration Increased Since Bush; White House Hid Data Your American I.Q.? Take the Citizenship Test The Homeland Security chief said the "catch and release" program has not worked and proposed stemming the tide of illegal immigration by setting up a guest worker program and expelling every single illegal resident. Do you think this solution will work? "Return every single illegal entrant. No exceptions!" Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff told the Senate Judiciary Committee Tuesday, proposing long-term goals on stemming the tide of illegal immigration. "Brute enforcement" alone is not the answer, Mr. Chertoff said, adding that companies must comply with workplace laws and the U.S. should create a guest worker program. Almost 900,000 Mexicans caught entering the U.S. each year are returned immediately, but others have simply overwhelmed the existing system with sheer numbers. "Today, a non-Mexican illegal immigrant caught trying to enter the United States across the southwest border has an 80 percent chance of being released immediately because we lack the holding facilities," Mr. Chertoff said. Those who are released rarely return to attend deportation hearings. And shortage of officers increase the likelihood that they will never be caught. The guest worker program would authorize temporary immigrants to work for six years in the U.S. before returning to their home country and reapplying for the benefit. Those who are already here would pay a fine before being allowed to apply. But Congress is not prepared to take on any comprehensive immigration reform this year and instead plans to add money for more officers and more beds at detention facilities. It is unclear whether Cuban immigrants would still receive special benefits under what became known as the "wet feet, dry feet" policy, which allows Cubans who reach U.S. soil to pursue residency within a year of arrival. How do you think the U.S. should approach illegal immigration? [Views expressed are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect those of CompuServe, Netscape, any government, agency, or news organization.]

Edited 10/18/2005 6:47 pm ET by Dayhawk Kim

Oh - get a grip - They don't rip off the American public any more than any other administration does. That's Government.

Sure, lets expel all of the immigrants, forgeting tht we are a country of immigrants,

We are a country of immigrants who came to this country to be a part of this country. They learned our language and became citizens. Not so with Mexico.

What an obscene proposal.

Since 9/11, it doesn't make any sense at all to keep ILLEGAL (key word) aliens here. I know that now we are supposed to call them "undocumented workers" but they are still ILLEGAL.

You are also mistaken with regard to stopping illegal imigration: The Republicians including Bush support it in that they all want the cheap labor for big business and the Democrates support illegal imigration in that they all become good democrates whereby they can live off welfare beneifits forever.

The principle moto of a left wing liberal like yourself is to re-distribute the nations wealth from the people that worked hard for it to the people that are doing nothing.

Answer: Pull all the troups out of Europe where they are hated and put them on the Mexican border where the real threat is.

Mark Fremont

You are exactly right Chris. But that's the way Bush wants it in order to maintain cheap wages for the rich and corps., and eliminate the so-called middle class.

I AGREE,BUT WITH NO GUEST WORKER STATUS EITHER. COMPANIES NOT COMPLYING OR HIRING ILLEGALS SHOULD FACE STIFF PENALTIES. IF TAKES JOBS AWAY BECAUSE OF CHEAPER LABOR, AND INCREASES PROFITS THAT DO NOT "TRICKLE DOWN" IN THE ECONOMY DUE TO CHEAPER LABOR. IT'S JUST A WINDFALL, NOTHING MORE. WITH THAT SAID, IT HAS PLACED UNDUE BURDEN ON HEALTHCARE AND SCHOOLS ALL ACROSS THE UNITED STATES, ALONG WITH THE COURT SYSTEMS, FOOD STAMP PROGRAMS AND OTHER AID TO AMERICAN CITIZENS. I REALIZE THAT THERE ARE SOME THAT DO NOT FALL INTO THIS GROUP, HOWEVER, THOSE ARE FEW IN COMPARISON TO THOSE THAT DO. SEND THEM BACK, AND THE SOONER, THE BETTER.!!!!!!! SORRY FOR THE "SHOUTING" AS IT IS CALLED ON THESE BOARDS, BUT IT'S HIGH TIME MOST AMERICAN CITIZENS BEGIN TO SHOUT ABOUT THIS PROBLEM. SHOUTING IS THE ONLY WAY TO GET THE ATTENTION OF OUR "BELOVED" LEADERS IN THEIR INFINITE WISDOM. HA HA!!!

WELL, THIS IS ONE DEMOCRAT WHO SAYS SHIP THEM ALL BACK. IT'S TRUE THAT THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON THE BACK OF MANY IMMIGRANTS, HOWEVER, THOSE PEOPLE ADHERED TO THE RULES AND REGULATIONS PUT IN PLACE, AND BECAME A PART OF THIS CULTURE, LEARNING THE LANGUAGE, LAWS, AND MAKING A SOLID CONTRIBUTION. THEY DID NOT WANT A FREE HANDOUT, ONLY A HAND IN BUILDING THIS COUNTRY. THAT SAID, IT IS NOT ENTIRELY, EVEN REMOTELY TRUE, WITH THE VAST MAJORITY OF IMMIGRANTS HERE TODAY. THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALLY, TAKE THE MOST FREE GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS AVAILABLE, DO NOT SPEAK MUCH ENGLISH, AND PUT A STRAIN ON HEALTHCARE, SCHOOLS, COURTS, AND OTHER GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS. SEND THEM BACK FOREVER UNLESS THEY PLAY BY THE SAME RULES AMERICAN CITIZENS MUST PLAY BY, AND THE SOONER THE BETTER. THE COST OF SENDING THEM BACK WOULD APPEAR TO BE MINUTE IN COMPARISON TO THE LONG TERM COSTS OF CONTINUING ON THE SAME ROAD AS TODAY. SEEYALATERBYE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A little context please -- these people didn't start coming when Bush was inaugurated.

You are saying that because they are not of your kind.........

as franklin d. roosevelt opened an address to the daughters of the american revolution:

"my fellow immigrants:"

rant on about immigration reform as much as you like. never happen. u.s. business will not allow it, and the u.s. economy cannot manage it. your prosperity depends critically on the 11 million or so illegals in the u.s.

per business week, these folks harvest half of our food, process one-third of our meat, provide one-third of our food service, take care of one-third or more of our housekeeping and janitorial work, and do at least one quarter of our needle trades and lowest-wage unskilled manufacturing jobs.

whether you've noticed or not, the american work force is aging, the labor supply shrinking, advanced degrees diminishing, talent thinning, and population growth flattening. unlike europe and japan, which face stagnation and economic contraction, the u.s. is still able to attract large numbers of immigrants who are expected to maintain economic, population, and market growth and raise the levels of talent available in every sector.

from high tech IT to low end services of every description, american business is inalterably opposed to anything but token immigration controls, meantime supporting amnesty for those illegals already here. since we remember whose contributions support the incumbents, it's reasonable to expect that neither congress nor the administration will even nip at the hand that feeds them.

so save your breath. never happen.

it might be instructive to remember where we came from. the selfishness, arrogance, and intolerance i see in some of these posts flies in the face of the very american values that brought people here in the first place and gave them homes.

oh. except half of my ancestors, who were none too happy to see the british buy nieuw amsterdam out from under them, but they seemed to do OK nonetheless.

meantime, welcome to the new world a todo el mundo.

kind regards,

casimir

This issue has been predicted to be one of main GOP platforms in the upcoming election - a political stunt. If Bush/Homeland were serious about porous borders, they would have sealed everything up after 9/11. The GOP are putting the face of evil on the Jews..I mean, immigrants.

You may have to shoot a couple a couple but the word will spread like wildfire. I you think that

is extreme what would you if one entered your home?

"my fellow immigrants:"

None of my fellow conspirators that I know of are against legal immigration. They are against illegal immigration. You are misstating the argument and arguing with your misstatement. The good news is that you are winning.

rant on about immigration reform as much as you like. never happen. U.S. business will not allow it, and the U.S. economy cannot manage it. your prosperity depends critically on the 11 million or so illegals in the U.S.

I happen to disagree. Though I could be wrong, I believe the American people will eventually force politicians who want to get re elected to seal the borders. Some businesses will not like it but will adjust. My prosperity also depends on radicle Muslims not slipping across the border and blowing me up. My prosperity also depends upon illegals not draining government resources without paying taxes for them.

per business week, these folks harvest half of our food, process one-third of our meat, provide one-third of our food service, take care of one-third or more of our housekeeping and janitorial work, and do at least one quarter of our needle trades and lowest-wage unskilled manufacturing jobs.

What does that have to do with them breaking the law? If buisnesses were dumping toxic waste in the lake to save some money and pass on to a cheaper product would you support that?

whether you've noticed or not, the American work force is aging, the labor supply shrinking, advanced degrees diminishing, talent thinning, and population growth flattening. unlike Europe and japan, which face stagnation and economic contraction, the U.S. is still able to attract large numbers of immigrants who are expected to maintain economic, population, and market growth and raise the levels of talent available in every sector.

Actually, there are something like 2.3 children per American household. It takes 2.2 to sustain the population. Also, fewer Americans are dying prematurely so it is not possible that the workforce is "aging". Europe is facing a stagnated economy due to excessive socialism and taxation stiffing the free market system. I am not sure why Japan would be stagnating. How can predominantly low skilled, uneducated illegals, most of whom can't even speak english, "raise the levels of talent in every sector?"

from high tech IT to low end services of every description, American business is unalterably opposed to anything but token immigration controls, meantime supporting amnesty for those illegals already here. since we remember whose contributions support the incumbents, it's reasonable to expect that neither congress nor the administration will even nip at the hand that feeds them.

How can predominantly low skilled, uneducated illegals, most of whom can't even speak english be filling "hi tech" positions causing companies to oppose reform on that basis? The lower end jobs I can understand. True, politicians depend on money to campaign, but they depend on votes to stay in office. The same grass roots effort that put the republicans in power, both on the federal and state level, can have a similar effect on immigration reform.

so save your breath. never happen.

I am optimistic that it will happen. But then if I was pessimistic all the time I would be a liberal.

it might be instructive to remember where we came from. the selfishness, arrogance, and intolerance I see in some of these posts flies in the face of the very American values that brought people here in the first place and gave them homes.

It might be instructive to remember that laws were made for a reason. I'm pretty sure if someone broke into your house and stole your possessions, you would want to make sure that the law was enforced. It might also be instructive to remember that if a group of illegals can cross the border, a jihadi with a suitcase nuke can also. It might also be instructive to remember that thousands of non-white, non-Americans either get naturalized or obtain work visas every year. Legally.

oh. except half of my ancestors, who were none too happy to see the British buy nieuw amsterdam out from under them, but they seemed to do OK nonetheless.

If you don't want the British to buy something, don't put it up for sale. Guess who no longer owns Jaguar?

I live in Los Angeles, a city with a huge immigrant population. There are a few things to consider about this issue:

#1
As with any supply and demand, why are so many people coming over the border? It's not just Mexico, either...there are many reports of boats docking with hundreds of Asian people stowed in the holds.

Should America work on making these people's home countries stable enough that the population would rather stay than leave?

#2
Why are American businesses continuing to hire these people? Because they're cheap slave labor, that's why. Why pay an American citizen union wages to perform manual labor when you can pay a tenth of that to an illegal immigrant whom you can control, because you can threaten to report them to INS if they get out of line?

So should the Federal Government tell US business leaders whom they can and can not hire? And what is the penalty if they do not comply?

Furthermore, what's stopping these businesses from relocating to the home country and paying slave wages there?

When will America learn to support itself? Our infrastructure is collapsing--we don't make anything for ourselves anymore (look at you clothes, your food, your house...how much of that was made by American citizens?)

#3
What about the immigrants who are here now, who have become citizens (legally), and who now vote for pro-immigrant policies in elections?

Should the Federal Government go against the will of the democratic people who happen to believe in giving immigrants a chance? (since many of the voters are recent immigrants themselves?)

Do we need to impress upon the recent immigrants the effect they and their families are having on the beautiful land of opportunity that they have come to?

#4
Why aren't more citizens of America willing to take on the low-paid, manual labor jobs that immigrants routinely take? Go into any high school, and ask the kids there what they're going to do when they graduate (assuming they graduate). How many of them will say "pick fruit for a dollar a basket seven days a week" or "clean toilets in office buildings from 6pm-2am" or "bus tables on the weekend while my friends are partying"?

Should parents and teachers lower kids' expectations, or require teenagers to work these low-skill jobs? Does anyone remember having a paper route?

Personally, I dug ditches, removed asbestos, and gardened my high school to pay for my tuition (private school). After that, I had a paper route to get a little extra money (which I occasionally gave to my single-parent mother to help her make ends meet). In college, I flipped burgers at the school cafeteria to pay rent (it was a great job, actually...I got paid dollars above minimum wage, earned meal tickets for any food on campus, and got to work with my college peers). Of course, now I'm a bum and rely on wifefare for life.

#5
FYI, many Hispanic immigrants are socially conservative (and devoutly Catholic), and have been known to vote Republican on many issues (anti-abortion, gay repression, etc.). To remove them from the country (or piss them off) also means attacking a large base of voters.

What politician is willing to take a chance on alienating a huge demographic of aliens (at least the legal voting ones)?

#6
If it's so easy to get into this country for a barely-educated Mexican, how easy is it for a terrorist to hop the border?

#7
What about the large numbers of Canadians who immigrate to America? Are they OK because they're white and speak English?

*******
Personally, I don't think we'll ever solve this issue until America collapses as the lone superpower (coming soon), so that another country is more attractive to immigrate to than the US.

Realize, the "cooler" or "better" we are as a nation, the more people want to be a part of that.

Does anyone know how socialist nations (e.g., Scandinavia) handle immigration? It seems there are better places to go if you want free meal ticket.

Thanks for reading.

SNF

This is the reason as to why they will never be able to expel all illegals because the focus would be on the "Browns" and they would immediately scream discrimination, and they would be just in doing so.

 How often is it that the news reports someone illegal coming across the Canadian border as oppose to the ones coming across the Mexican borders including the dead bodies that the find in the process?

I don't blame hungry people for coming here looking to work , I blame greedy americans , and companies for trying to get something for nothing . These people end up being slaves by american standards . They work without insurance , and for far lower wages than an american could . They deserve some respect in my book ,,,unlike the companies that hired them , and if the fines are small enough why would it stop???

WHEN IN REALITY THEY SHOULD WORRY ABOUT OTHER ISSUES. I AGREE WE HAVE A

PROBLEM BUT WHY DON'T THEY EVER SEE THE BENIFITS. FOR INSTANCE EVERY ILLEGAL WORKING IN THE

U.S PAYS TAXES THOSE TAXES THAT ARE BEING TAKEN OUT ALL GO FOR US FUNDS SOCIAL SECURTY,

EDUCATION,WELFARE ETC.THEY ALSO CONTIBUTE GREATLY TO THE US ECONOMY THEY BUY HOMES,CARS

CLOTHING, ETC. IF THEY THROW THEM OUT WOULD'NT THE US BE IN DEBT WITH THE AMERICANS?

THEY SHOULD REALLY CONSIDER A REFORM FOR INMIGRANTS REGARDLESS OF THEIR NATIONALITY.

WHY IS IT THAT MEXICANS ARE THE FIRST TO BE NAMED. WE HAVE PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD,WE HAVE RUSSIANS,POLISH,CHINESE ,JAPANESE,DOMINICANS,SALVADORIANS,GUATEMALENS,ETC.

WHEN THEY SPEAK ABOUT ILLEGALS THEY SHOULDN'T REFER JUST TI ONE MINORITY

Reagan gave illegals amnesty. Bush wants to give illegals amnesty-are those the lucy and larry liberals of whom you speak? Seems to me it's the two faced conservatives who actually bend the US over and grease us up for more illegals.

Short term gains without considering the long term consiquences. That's the USA's biggest problem across the board.

I'm from El Salvador, been in this great nation for over 35 years now. When I came to the US I didn't speak a word of english, now years later I've worked all of my life, speak english and write it better than the average native US born citizen.

 I'm referring to your posted message, even online they have spell-checking free software, use it.

By the way, I came here as a legal permanent resident thanks to my father that immigrated all of us eight children in compliance with U.S. Immigration laws.

The first move, or lack of one, should be to wait until the Bush administration is out of office and let the next one handle it. Everything this administration has touched in nearly five years has turned into sh-t.

The fact is all illegals pay the same amount of taxes as any legal worker here in the U.S. with the exception they, the majority don't file for income tax refunds like you or me do. Where is all the tax monies they paid?

You might try to get in touch with the IRS, but I bet it is in the billions, who is benefiting here? You seem to be a smart subject, can you figure it out?

"morons" is a word that is not used often enough........

Doesn't change the premise of this thread one bit,you're missing the point entirely.

Mark Fremont

How many more gangs do we have b/c of this? How many more prisoners do we have b/c of this? How much more do we pay for auto insurance b/c of this? They don't abide by the rules.. They dont have car insurance, etc...

It is out of hand and it is ridicoulis... The United States needs to close its borders like every other country has done.

The cuban immigrants need to be sent back to cuba... The "wet feet/dry feet" policy is stupid.. Who is the genius that came up with that one??

When Jimmy Carter let them all in here...it took one year for them to ruin Miami and they own the Miami Airport now... Not bad for coming here without anything!!!! AMERICA------WAKE UP!

I resent having spanish along with the english on food/instructions etc...... This is America....the language is ENGLISH.... like it or LEAVE IT!!

Contribute? They take jobs from American Citizens. If you didn't have a job and an ILLEGAL (any other country) that was working a job you would like to have, you might change your tune.

How do I KNOW that a lot don't pay taxes? Because they work for cash. I have had them walk into my office to apply for a job (with an interpreter) and offer to take the job for half of what it pays if I will pay cash. I do not hire them but I have no control over who other legitimate business hire.

I contracted for a roof for my company. $56,000 plus supplies. It was a legitimate roofing company. The day they started the roof the bilingual foreman showed up with 4 non-english speaking Mexicans. In the course of conversation with another employee I was told they were illegal and they were getting paid 50 dollars a day (cash)and those days were10 hours long.. Let's see for 5 days each laborer made 250 for the week x 4=1,000 plus the 1,000 the roofing company paid for insurance to cover them on our property. Now I'd say by using slave labor and after a minimum of expenses he pocketed at least 52 grand on one job.

I hired a legitimate company to do our lawn once a week. Thats 700 a month and of course 3 non english speaking Mexicans show up and it takes about 2 hours. They make 5 dollars an hour. They might do 5 to 8 lawns 24/7-365. Slave labor-getting paid cash - no taxes paid.

Now in Texas we have thousands of Mexican ILLEGALS but there is little doubt that there are illegals here from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi, Columbia, El Salvador, Haiti, Cuba to name a few. Last year several Middle Eastern types were caught being smuggled in.

It is people like you that make this world a worst place to live

Then so be it. I would rather live in a country that is free of ILLEGALS where I might feel a little safer from terroists or Cuba's empty jails.

Thank you very much

Bush just signed a new bill that will supposedly strengthen the border etc. The big "gotcha" here is that he still clings to the so-called "guest worker" program that you, I and every damned illegal on the street knows is a joke. There was an immigration attorney on our local news who admitted that no illegal will leave after a three year stint here. A woman called into a C-Span segment on illegals the other day with a sad story about her two years of pursuing disabled status, without medical coverage and her run in with an illegal who was presented with a bill in the emergency room. The Mexican laughed and then explained that she was illegal and was under no obligation to pay anyone anything. The woman on disability was required to be billed, I know this truth only too well because this same scenario has happened to me repeatedly. Illegals sucking up resources that I had to do without for two years on disability and then "copping an attitude" about their elevated status. Just poor, sweet, hard-working immigrants who want to be Americans? LOLOLOLOLOL! Oh Please. They're leeches and they need to be extracted. No guest workers, no Spanish language pandering, no health coverage, no jobs, no freebies, no more invasion and no more humiliation at the hands of our own government officials. Let's wipe the smirk off the illegals' faces.

SEND THEM BACK SO I MAY HAVE MY S S CHECK THAT I PAID IN TO FOR 42 YRS.

DON

I think that it is a real shame that so many of these people come in to our country and do not even take the legal way to gain citizenship.

I think that anyone that wants to get the US citizenship should go through a background check just to rule out sny possible threat to bring harm to others.. All countries should do this... I hope that the boarders do a better job at keeping aliens out...

just to be picky-picky, they're not criminals until arrested, prosecuted, and convicted, then to be incarcerated or deported. now they're mostly just sent back across the border to enter again.

nonetheless, point well taken. but 11 million people is a lot of criminals. the economy has come to rely on them (see previous post). most important, per guest worker legislation now pending, in somewhat similar democratic and republican versions, current illegals will stop being considered criminals upon establishment of proof of residence, verification of employment, and payment of a not insubtantial fee.

this amnesty is of course opposed on the grounds that it excuses unlawful behavior, and supported as a means to keep a useful labor force here and at work, while restricting and prosecuting further illegal aliens.

whatever compromise passes, whether we like it or not, michael chertoff's new policies notwithstanding, they're here to stay.

kind regards,

casimir

It is true that the vast majority of them pay no direct taxes other than sales tax. Their employers, however, cannot deduct wages paid to the illegals and thus are forced to pay income taxes at a higher rate than the illegals would pay if they were paying taxes. It could be correctly said that illegals pay taxes in the form of low wages. Additionally, because illegals have little hope of American home ownership, they rent and pay property taxes as a part of that rent and provide profit vehicles for American landlords who in turn pay both property and income taxes.

The loudest debates over both legal and illegal immigration occur during periods of economic recession. At those times illegal immigrants might really be taking jobs some Americans might wish to have. I would have to check my numbers to verify accuracy, but offhand I would estimate that our economy is actually in recession less than ten percent of the time. The other 90% of the time our robust economy is able to offer full employment to both citizens and immigrants.

Immigrants are not taking jobs people on the welfare roles would perform. Separate welfare from unemployment insurance. Welfare is given to our lowest earning (or no earning) societal segment, which is, in my opinion, did little to prepare for productive life and continue to use that same lack of ambition during what should be their productive years. I have been an employer and know people can be divided into two groups, one that wants a paycheck and the other that wants a job (paycheck of course included). Only members of the second group typically learn the skills to progress through the ranks, pay levels, and classes of society. Welfare is something we actually pay to our least ambitious people to stay out of our way. Putting such people to work accomplishes nothing. Using illegal immigrants is a much more attractive alternative to the completion of our most distasteful and sometimes most dangerous tasks. These people are obviously sufficiently ambitious to move to follow their dreams and find work. In this regard they are typically the best their countries have to offer.

Medicaid and our government-sponsored hospitals are where the burden can fall. We get stuck with the bills when illegal aliens have babies or break their arms. They don't qualify for many other programs because their illegal status precludes application for most other types of aid. My response to this perceived burden is "so what." It is not that I want to pay for the undeserving, but this is built in to their low wage structure. As already stated, they do pay taxes both directly and indirectly. This and their low wages are part of that bargain -- and is part of the system we created. When we started denying illegal immigrants social security cards, and when we criminalized hiring them, it became impossible for employers to directly tax illegals and offer them insurance. The medical care provided to illegal immigrants is actually a subsidy paid to the citizens and legal residents who hire them. It comes back to society at large in the form of lower prices facilitated by these subsidies and by the higher taxation rates paid by the employer instead of the employee. In a complete examination of things, it all comes out in the wash.

We don't need new laws to stop illegal immigration. If we really want to stop illegal immigration, all we need to do is enforce the laws we already have. Illegal immigrants are subject to deportation at any moment, and employers of illegal immigrants are subject to a ten thousand dollar fine, per illegal alien, for hiring them. We will never have to enforce these laws, however, because our market economy will do it for us. If we reach a point at which unemployment often endures beyond unemployment insurance, and our own citizens cannot change their unemployment status via domestic relocation, wages will go down and our own citizens will be willing to work for the wages we now pay illegal aliens. If that happens, employers will jump at the chance to hire legally instead of illegally, because they reduce their own income tax burden by doing so, while eliminating the risk of prosecution they endure while hiring illegals. If our economy reaches these levels, we automatically solve the problem of illegal immigration by removing the attraction of available jobs. We need neither to create new laws nor enforce the ones we already have. The solution is built into a free market economy governed by the laws of supply and demand.

I consider myself a fairly ambitious American citizen, and I've completed three college degrees to prepare myself for productive life. My stand on illegal immigration is fairly simple: until I see an illegal immigrant doing a job that precludes the realization of my ambitions, I just won't worry about it. Think the issues through before reacting to the words illegal and alien. Think past the rhetoric of politicians who use the gut level reaction to those words to justify their inability to manage their economies. Illegal aliens are dreamers sufficiently motivated to face the dangers of illegal entry and sufficiently motivated to face the fear of strange places where they usually don't even speak the language. How many of us would face the same dangers and brave the same fears to work (and work hard) for what we, as a society, are willing to pay them? As a rule, these are people worthy of true respect and not the scorn we typically pay them. I fail to see any real justification for our negative reactions and rhetoric. I simply fail to see the problem.

catch up with congress. per pending guest worker legislation, in somewhat similar democratic and republican versions, current illegal workers will be permitted to stay upon proof of residence, verification of employment, and payment of a not insubstantial fee. further, the bills provide that any further illegals will be apprehended and expelled.

i do reasonably expect that laws against burglary will be enforced, although i'm fairly well insured, and the cops rarely recover burgled goods. current immigration laws are not being enforced, perhaps cannot be enforced, so they change.

whether we like it or not, it is the 11 million illegals -- a large number to catch and deport -- whom the economy has come to depend on. without them, the crops rot in the fields, the chicken doesn't become mcnuggets, hotels can't make beds, shirts are not sewn, restaurants can't cook shrimp with lobster sauce, and so on.

also catch up with demographics. economic growth depends on population growth. a replacement birth rate, 2.3 children per household, is not growth. (see BLS and SSA for detailed data.) europe and japan have recognized this too late, and indeed their human services are hard pressed to keep up with a growing population of the old, and a shrinking population of the productive.

as to skills, ask intel, microsoft, IBM, any enterprise depending on technology, how difficult it is for them to recruit qualified people. H1-B visas have been severely restricted, to the point that perfectly legal foreign talent is being kept out. (see INS for specifics.) fewer american-born people are getting advanced degrees in the sciences and engineering. in fact, the majority of those credentials are now going to the foreign-born, some of whom stay, many of whom return home to their own high-tech industries.

"predominantly low-skilled, uneducated...most of whom cannot even speak english." well, except for the irish, that describes the people who came here for low-wage work, built the country by hand, and in spite of resistance from not only the anglo-saxon establishment but the people who arrived a few boats before, brought forth generations of highly skilled, highly educated entrepreneurs and professionals. so there's not only hope but precedent.

besides, the irish became cops and firemen. only a minority turned into corrupt democratic machine politicians. and not all of them drink to excess.

oh. rest assured that any jihadis intent on doing us harm will most likely enter legally with their papers in order, as the perpetrators of 9/11 did. there are much more efficient ways to stop terrorists than by sealing the borders. also, suitcase nukes would not be carry-on or checked baggage.
yeah, well, my ancestors' government sold out to the british for some nutmeg plantations, but they did OK, even after their human resources import business was shut down.

meantime, i do see a lot more jaguars in town, and fewer mercedeses, supposedly because of quality issues, probably caused more by inept german management and featherbedding german workers than by turkish guest laborers.

kind regards,

casimir

hey sweets..no one has a problem with LEGAL immigrants. Its the illegal ones that are reaping the benefits of our tax dollars while our own legal citizens get pushed aside. Wake up already! K

N.I.M.B.Y.-->Not In My Back Yard

dude, they multiply like rabbits..give it a few years :)

JK..

K

assist in the control of illegal entry. This could free BP agents to return to the towns and cities and begin collecting and deporting all illegals.. The holding of hearings before deporting is unnecessary and wasteful. If they don't have the

necessary papers of a legal alien they should go immediately! If they are not

Mexican, so be it. Let Fox worry about illegals in his country for awhile. He doesn't mind supplying them to us.

One black man said "I can't go back now, it's contaminated. I will live in a good hotel and get vouchers for food from FEMA. This big fat lazy person was in a casino, buying almost a thousand dollars in chips ( I said 1000 dollars) That thousand dollars won't go far in the casino.

Kick the illegals out????? Who will put New Orleans back together again?????? The lazy, "gimme something for nothing" black men????? I don't think so. I volunteered to help, and found many black men doing nothing all day, just sitting around till the next meal is served.

I am disgusted. Will anything make those men GET OFF THEIR LAZY ASSES AND WORK? I don't think so when Fema is there to throw money at them

But if trying to turn back the hands of time works lets get those gas pumps to go below a buck a gallon again. It's not going to happen. At know time in history has a wave of immigration or migration lead to the downfall of this country nor will it know. It has shown to cause growing pains and over time when the rhetoric, resentments, and prejudice subsides acceptance and the benefits of the largest minority in OUR country will start to be realized.

Sounds like a good plan. Welfare should be TOTALLY out of the question for anyone who is not a citizen.

They will be fined severely if they have felony conviction and have been involved in criminal activities.

At that point they should be sent back, permanently!

They should be given free medical care and it should be paid by the employers who want to sponsor them and take the responsibility that they will be not be a burden on the society.

Why should they be given free medical care? If they want to come here for a better life that is understandable. However, they should not get more benefits than our citizens. Ludicrous

What makes you think I'm white?

So you say put the citizens currently on welfare to work, like this is going to happen? Chertoff, doesn't know or has a clue of how it is to live like an illegal alien or any of you folks that talk more than you chew.

Anyone collecting welfare that is able to work, should work. Or be cut off from the freebies. While complaining about living like an illegal alien, remember - life won't get better sitting on your butt!

First, we need to enforce our laws, which means CONGRESS, who has a legal obligation and duty to protect and defend our borders needs to get off their arses and DO SOMETHING!!!!!

Second, if there were stiff fines for any companies or individuals caught employing or housing illegals, to include not providing any government or public services, especially free medical or education, it would start making a huge dent for those already here or considering entering our borders illegally!

Lastly, American citizens need to get off their duff and stop whining about it and become proactive! That means getting the word out to your representatives, school board, governors, mayors, etc., and saying ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, and that anyone who is not going to take their oath of office seriously will not be elected, period! The oath of office extends to constitutional promises, and if they cannot support either federal and state constitutions or laws, then they are not fit to serve!

If those bills are passed and the aliens comply with it then they will not be "illegal" will they. If the American people are happy with it the politicians will remain in office, if not, then they will be fired by the electorate. All of that is fine with me.

i do reasonably expect that laws against burglary will be enforced, although i'm fairly well insured, and the cops rarely recover burgled goods. current immigration laws are not being enforced, perhaps cannot be enforced, so they change.

If you expect burglary laws to be enforced, why not immigration laws? Just because some people get away with breaking a law doesn't mean we should abolish the law. And all sorts of laws having nothing to do with immigration change all the time. I don't see the relevance of this paragraph.

whether we like it or not, it is the 11 million illegals -- a large number to catch and deport -- whom the economy has come to depend on. without them, the crops rot in the fields, the chicken doesn't become mcnuggets, hotels can't make beds, shirts are not sewn, restaurants can't cook shrimp with lobster sauce, and so on.

Again, I never said we shouldn't have some sort of guest worker program. You are misstating the argument and arguing with your misstatement.

also catch up with demographics. economic growth depends on population growth. a replacement birth rate, 2.3 children per household, is not growth. (see BLS and SSA for detailed data.) europe and japan have recognized this too late, and indeed their human services are hard pressed to keep up with a growing population of the old, and a shrinking population of the productive.

Actually, yes it is. 2.2 children per family is the minimum to sustain population. 2.3 and above are population growth. Read the last Cencus.

as to skills, ask intel, microsoft, IBM, any enterprise depending on technology, how difficult it is for them to recruit qualified people. H1-B visas have been severely restricted, to the point that perfectly legal foreign talent is being kept out. (see INS for specifics.) fewer american-born people are getting advanced degrees in the sciences and engineering. in fact, the majority of those credentials are now going to the foreign-born, some of whom stay, many of whom return home to their own high-tech industries.

I don't dissagree but I don't see your point either.

"predominantly low-skilled, uneducated...most of whom cannot even speak english." well, except for the irish, that describes the people who came here for low-wage work, built the country by hand, and in spite of resistance from not only the anglo-saxon establishment but the people who arrived a few boats before, brought forth generations of highly skilled, highly educated entrepreneurs and professionals. so there's not only hope but precedent.

Again, I agree, but I don't see your point. Name one illegal immigrant that has started a corparation.

besides, the irish became cops and firemen. only a minority turned into corrupt democratic machine politicians. and not all of them drink to excess.

What does that have to do with anything. I never said all Irish dring to excess.

oh. rest assured that any jihadis intent on doing us harm will most likely enter legally with their papers in order, as the perpetrators of 9/11 did. there are much more efficient ways to stop terrorists than by sealing the borders. also, suitcase nukes would not be carry-on or checked baggage.
yeah, well, my ancestors' government sold out to the british for some nutmeg plantations, but they did OK, even after their human resources import business was shut down.

The chances of mulims coming in to attack us will be much slimmer, but not completely impossible, if we do something about illegal immigration.

Exactly what do you think the word "AMNESTY" did for our borders when he was slinging it around during his first presidential campaign? The same way illegals poured into this country when Reagan used it! The word Amnesty used in any election for the sole purpose of procuring votes should be considered a crime IMO! 

For example. I know a person who has been in the United States illegally for over fifteen years. This person owns three homes and a business here and employs eleven people. This person pays taxes like we all do but cannot come forward for fear of deportation. What would the government gain by sending a hard working person like this back. Nothing, absolutely nothing. My point is simple. It is a whole lot cheaper for the politicians to tell the citizens they are doing everything they can to control the tide coming across than to really try to shut down the border. In the mean time there are people coming across who have only one motive for being here and that is not to work. It is to harm us in some way.

The politicians need to realize that money and greed are not reason enough to allow this continual flow across our borders.

Those of us whose ancestors were immigrants are largely descended from those who either came legally, through the front door, or before there were laws on immigration. So these were not people who broke laws of two countries to get here. These were also people who came prepared to work hard for anything they wanted. When my people came to the USA it would never have occurred to them to claim they had a right to healthcare, welfare or that this country should change its language to suit their convenience. They came prepared to work and to try to fit in. And they came with the consent of the country.

For years the US had a fairly liberal open door policy. By what logic do you say that a country that has opened its doors cannot close them again? Part of our legal immigration policy has been that we accepted people with a useable skill. These illegal immigrants usually have no such skills. Those who have skills tend to stay and work where they are. Haven't we seen what a burden these underskilled, under employed people are on Mexico? Haven't we seen the trouble they have with their economy? Why should we want to take this burden on ourselves? If Mexico needs help, perhaps it should begin by improving their educational system. I wonder how many votech schools are in operation in Mexico. Does it offer any encouragement to students to stay in school? Exactly why should we make Mexico's problems our problem?

As for the response to hurricane Katrina, much of the blame must be laid at the feet of the totally corrupt and incompetent governments of New Orleans and Louisiana. Has anyone noticed how much more efficient all agencies operating outside the New Orleans area have been? It's no coincidence. Yes, Brown is an idiot but the fact that you do not parcel blame to Nagin or Blanco negates anything you have to say on the Katrina issue. You're just another Liberal idiot.

but it seems that those kids in daycare are in a way worse off. since it promotes being separate from their parents. it is harder it seems for the kids to relate to the parents and the same way parent to kids. since they are not with each other for most of the day. maybe just a couple of hours per day do they see each other.

and some states if not all are putting limits on how long one can be on welfare. 5 years is the max for it. one can stop it at any time and keep the remainder of it for later times when they again are having troubles.

a reply to:

SURE, SEND THEM BACK AND THEN START PUTTING THESE AMERICANS TO WORK WHO ARE ON THE WELFARE,IF THEY CHOOSE NOT TO DO THE JOB,CUT THEM OFF!!!!!!

a reply to:

All bilingual programs should be scrapped immediately

I love to see the Illegals come into our Emergency room.For FREE services.Hurt from some sport they are playing.

What is sad is how they cant afford to pay the bill.But find some way to buy there $150.00 Soccer uniform.Pads, Cleats,Shin guards.

They Rape our system.Why cant they at least learn the language.And stop destroying any complex they live.Have some respect.

Live like Dogs get treated like Dogs!

and we need t hem to help pay into SS so we can draw better checks :)

Actually anyone who engages in criminal activity (such as criminal tresspass) ia a criminal, whether or not they're convicted. The activity itself is what makes one a criminal-not the conviction.

As for amnesty-we already HAD amnesty-under Reagan, remember? A "ONE TIME ONLY" amnesty. Well, so much for honesty in politicians. After THAT amnesty we were supposed to have much better border security. Didn't happen then, won't happen now. Amnesty is just a BS way to excuse illegal behavior.

As for the economy is dependent on them-Bulloney. Yes prices would go up if all the illegals were deported (which will never happen), But no, we are not dependant. That's just another argument from the apologists who want illegals here, for whatever reason. Many industries where there used to be decent paying jobs with good benefits are now low paying jobs with no benefits. It isn't the economy that's dependent, it's people who want the US economy to be done on the cheap who are dependent.

I also think that all of the displaced Louisiana refugees should be sent back. The Louisiana kids that have been segregated into my daughter's junior high and causing gang problems, and bringing more crime into our area.

What should we do with them? Ask George Bush who is sending billions of American dollars worth of aid to other countries but doesn't give a rat's ass about his own country. Louisiana could be rebuilt (including dams, etc.) in no time at all with that kind of money, and then everyone can go back home to start their lives over.

Very good point! They also send most of their money back to Mexico. How does this help our economy?

In the Carolina's we are having trouble with the Illegal immigrants driving while they are intoxicated. My niece and her two year old son were killed by an illegal immigrant, driving while he was drunk. He got three years and deportation after his release.

Guess what? He is out of jail, did 18 months, and he is still living here. My brother has put out a reward for anyone that can help catch him so he can be deported. I doubt very seriously that he will ever be caught. He has probably already bought a new ID.

I don't mind saying that I don't like having them here.

they in the U.S.A. Go back to what you are so proud of.

BlueBlood: Even a pub like me can see that. Maybe someone slapped him along the side of the head and he's beginning to wake up. It bothers me Congress says we can't get to this legislation this year.

They are the only country that doesnt have to go thru the same immigration processing and wait as persons from other countries. In realities, the cubans at this time in 2005 may be in less or no danger compared to many other countries where persons seek visas, and exile. Cheschenians being one that have extreme and dangerous living conditions.

I think the USA and our Congress may benefit be redefining our immigration policies to something like this:

TO remain a free society, we have to think of the people as a whole, and what is the best remedy of this big picture. !

Visas to travel and visit as a tourist. Set the dates and expiration date

visas to study, and then return to home country after graduation. Expected graduation date is the date of expiration per the student.

visas to work temporarily in the US on specific projects .Set expiration dates.

Citizenship evaluation based on something MORE THAN JUST DROPPING A BABY from your body while over in the USA. I think the born in the USA is a misnomer especially for all the mexican women in labor crossing the border.That should be an exception to the rule. There has to be more value to becoming a US citizen than your placenta!

citizenship based on contribution to betterment of our society, education, tax based. Applications reviewed in a timely manner and processed within a year of application.

make it formidable that you come to contribute to america not to just take up space. You have to pay taxes,, train, educate yourself and family. build a business that is legal . contribute to the betterment of economy.

you dont get a free ride cause your daddy made it here first.Why does the whole family get to be citizens if dad came and worked a year? Why are you leaving your own citizenship? Can we afford to relocate entire countries into ours and still maintain a quality existence?

Make people who are forgeiners pay for their own language classes and other necessities to adapt to oursociety. Schools and states are taxed with paying for all these low income people who cannot afford to pay for themselves.

how can they contribute to society if they cannot speak and understand our culture and language?

EXAMPLE: in south fl, most of the cuban kids and haitains cannot speak , read or write in english. primary school is slowed down and deprived of proper coursework while teachers struggle with children who do not understand the language.

WHy are our tax dollars paying to assimulate them?LET THEM ASSIMULATE.. but they have to pay taxes or something to participate.

ALSO social security... why are cubans able to collect social security they are not us citizens. Why are forgeiners applying for social security numbers?

There should be an immigration number assigned to passports or visas used.

NOT SOCIAL SECURITY FOR FORGEINERS.ITS FOR AMERICAN CITIZENS RETIREMENT AND DISABILITY.

If its an identifying factor. that forgeiner should be tracable by their assigned immigration number not by our social security system.

Drivers licenses by state should be directed to be issued to recognize temporary forgeiner status. Not a full state identification.

That would help police during routine traffic stops to find persons who visas may have expired.

Procedural things need to be changed in light of threats of terrorism . the undocumented need to be found and documented and put on a longer wait list for failing to meet the REQUIRED AMENESTY given in the USA.

there is nothing wrong with sending those back who did not comply. Do we get off on traffic tickets when we speed or run the red light?

No we are ticketed even if we didnt mean it..

There should be strict requirements and standards for health related issues.

people traveling from infectious areas should be tested or quarantined for awhile and if necessary denied access until the incubation period clears.

That is in old laws anyhow, just not applied. Center for Disease control 1960s.

I suppose there can be an appeal to every rule. I think we need more people and a faster way to process . I WOULD SAY FLAT ACROSS THE BOARD.. those forgeiners who are living here and DID NOT FOLLOW THE AMENESTY PROCEDURES should be sent back. and thats that.. they had their chances!

BlueBlood: You understand wrong. Most come here for more money. Most do not bring their familys but send the money back to their own country.

the wiz: This I can accept, and believe we should accommodate people like that. That continues to build America. We should speed up their transition into becoming productive members of our society.

BlueBlood: We do accomadate people like that. We have a process for people to come to this country. Those that enter illegally circumvent the process. When a illegal comes in an takes a job; that is a job that an American doesn't get. It also let's a crooked employer hire a worker at a lower wage and pay under the table which in turns gives him a unfair competitive edge. It also lets him not pay a fair wage and in many instances he pays no benifits.

BlueBlood: I rarely agree with oaf but I do on this issue. I keep getting calls for donations for the Republican party and I tell them "not this year or again until something is done about illegal immigration"

BlueBlood: ROTFLMAO

Now if you can say something like: the United States, as all known countries, has a history of exploiting labor. And if you can add that one of the reasons we have so many immigrants is that we exploit labor a lot less than do the countries from which people are emigrating we can say that perhaps you have a shred of honesty. And if you care to mention that many Chinese workers were not deported and that the reason they were here was because of poor conditions in their own country. The same might be said for the Irish who were being brutally mistreated and subjected to genocide in their own country by British conquerors. To think the United States is in any special class regarding exploitation of labor requires a great deal of ignorance. Just drive down to Tijuana or Ciudad Juarez and see how the working class lives.

BlueBlood: I'll go along with that. Now all we need to do is find the Red countries and the Blue countries.

J. Campanella

BlueBlood: Deport them all. Confiscate all properties of employers who hire illegals. Make a qouta system for migrant workers and permanent workers. Build a huge wall along the borders with electrification. Build a zone between Mexico and the wall and anouther behind it with barbed wire fencing and plant land mines between the two areas and on a random basis fire a few machine guns into the zone. If they still make it through sign them up into the army and send them off to war in Iraq, Afganistan or wherever needed. If they survive give them citizenship.

I am single and have no children. I was born and raised in the US. I have been paying taxes to support federal assistance programs for 23 years. I am a full time student in college and, because of my class schedule, can only work part time one or two days a week. I applied for several grants and scholarships but was denied. When I tried applying for federal assistance, I was denied it because I have no children. I started at Texas Work Force and was told that they could not help me because I was over the maximum income requirement. I went to apply for food stamps and was told that they could not help me I was not able to work enough hours to qualify for assistance. She then told me that if I were and illegal immigrant they would have been able to help me by placing me on their program. I find it very offensive that I can not get assistance because I was born here and have paid taxes to support these programs but some one who should not be here at all can get all the help they want.

Also, someone said something about them coming here and making a fortune and going home is WRONG... HELLO!! What do you think all these companies were doing with workers in Iraq?? They were sending US citizens to do jobs in FOREIGN COUNTRIES (read that THEIR citizens could have damned well used that money themselves), making up to and over an estimated million dollars in one year, then coming home and retiring on that money. Yet, you people see nothing wrong with THAT, do you, because that is OUR side doing that. Because we, the arrogant U.S. did it, so it MUST be ok. Jackasses need to get your heads out of the sand.

Since there were hundreds of different tribes, many times warring with one another, there was no "America". The "Indians" had no immigration laws, so no immigrants were "illegal". For a long period of time the USA had no immigration laws, and during that time no one coming here was illegal. We now have laws that forbid immigration without going through proper channels, if you do not, you are a criminal.

a reply to:

They should all have to go.

 different areas has different words to describe at times the same object, person, or action. plus each area has a different dialect too.

a reply to:

Well just call me silly. I thought that since we were American's and our national language appears to be English that anyone living in this country should be able to speak and understand English. I would also think that should I live in another country like Italy, I would be foolish to expect them to speak English and not Italian. Being able to fluently speak 2 or more languages is a big gold star in my book. So I do think if you are going to live in a country that is primarily English speaking then you should be able to speak it.

Most Illegals head to big cities where they aren't as noticeable. Illegal Aliens also include those that come here with a visa that says they want to be educated here. In one case several men were here to go to school and they flew planes in the WTC. Remember them? Our flight school taught them well. They were illegal aliens and they weren't Mexican. These people come in and disappear and our immigration authorities make no attempt to find them nor do they have any idea how many are really here. They don't stand up to be counted during a census.

And yes - if they are in this country ILLEGALLY regardless of what they have what they do or what country they came from they need to leave and follow the laws we have in place to migrate here legally. They are our laws and we aren't enforcing them because we have too many "candle burners" who aren't affected feeling sorry for what amounts to criminals. They are breaking the law. Now if that makes me a bigot well - that's your opinion. I am tired of paying for illegals breaking the law. Anywhere else it is aiding and abetting a criminal and our own government is doing just that.

I have no objection to someone coming to our country to live that follows the process. More power to them. But if they have to sneak into our country - then they all ready prove themselves to be sneaky and untrustworthy. Do you want them for you neighbors? I'm sure a few hundred would be making their way to your town within hours.

For the record - the company I work for employees a lot of Tex-Mex. These are Mexicans by heritage but born in the States. They get paid a fair wage and enjoy all the rights, benefits and every other American Citizen does and THEY don't want the illegals here that are Mexican. Now what does that tell you?

So tell me what town you are in and I'll post a sign in downtown Houston and tell them how welcome they are in your town to get jobs, free medical and if your real lucky they won't cause any problems. Then we'll see who the racist and bigot is Ms. Atheist

Very true BUT you can comprende' yes? You can order a meal in English of some form and expect to be understood without having to point to the menu unless it's a Mexican restaurant . Mispronounce a spanish word and they glare at you. Even the restaurants that are French, Indian, Thai, Chinese, Japanese or any other ethnic food tries to have a server that at least understands and speaks some form of English although I have had non-english speaking servers in places that weren't strictly Mexican food. Ask a Mexican server what a certain food is and they have to call the manager to answer. You might call it a Taco but it's really a taquera. I have learned more Spanish from eating out and shopping than I could have ever learned in school.

And frankly I have a hard time trying to understand what my Dr. even says is wrong with me. They are here legally - they are very good Dr's. but for crying out loud - most of the patients in my area are english speaking and I don't understand. You'd think if they were going to work here they would make a better effort to learn the language better. Think about you being in Germany and seeing a Dr. with extremely broken english and want to know if you have a cold or tuberculosis. Since I choose to live here I don't think it's asking too much for others that live here to learn the language here instead of me having to take classes in several languages. Whatya think? Too much to ask?

My wife is half Mexican.

<<Does anyone realize that there are hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens that are absolutely NOT from Mexico? So, do they go home as well?>>

Yes

<<The store owners that set up shop, get work permits, pay taxes, etc... even though they are not LEGAL, they still contribute. You still buy your beer or cigarettes or gas or food from their stores. Do they go home as well?

Yes

<<So, is everyone so pissed off that there are so many "illegals" here that EVERYONE, without fail, that is not a LEGAL citizen or visitor MUST be sent "home" ?>>

Yes

<<What about the thousands and thousands of people that have been here 15-20 years, that DO contribute, that DO work within the "system" as it were? Do they just LOSE the property they have worked to buy, lose the store they worked so HARD to open, lose the whole LIFE they have achieved here in the U.S. because some bigots want them gone?

Yes, they are criminals.

<<Why do you think so many people COME here? They lack the ability to scratch out a living at home. The land of the free and home of the brave, eh?>>

They should stay home and change the system where they live, be it Mexico, China or Haiti. Or Russia, Iran, or Saudi Arabia. Or wherever. Or they can apply and come here legally. Legal immigrants are welcome, illegal immigrants are criminals-do you understand the difference?

<< So you are all saying we are only free if we get rid of the dirty Mexicans? I hate bigotry. That is all I am seeing here. Stupid, red-neck, bigoted, close-minded simpletons that can't accept that the WHITE race is not the ONLY race worthy of STATUS in the United States. Oh, and yes, I am a WHITE person, born and raised in the U.S. I simply choose not to be as close-minded and utterly racist as most of the respondents here have been.>>

You're the only one who said Dirty Mexicans. Would you allow someone who climbs in your bedroom window to stay if they're able to hide for a week? They're still there illegally. Would you call them an "uninvited houseguest" like people call illegals "undocumented workers" ? A criminal is a criminal. They all have my complete empathy. I'm sure I'd love to come to the USA if I was stuck in Guatemala with a dirt floor. There are legal ways to come here. Those who do not are criminals whether they're here for a day or 20 years. By the way I made my living back in the 80s picking grapes-that's right a WASP picking grapes-and everyone I worked with was also American born-in Upstate New York. So the "No American will take those jobs" line is Bull. Pay people decent wages and they'll work. America has a right to keep out anyone they want. If you think we should have open borders, allowing in terrorists and persons with avain flu and TB and driving down all worker's benefits and wages, and driving up the cost of healthcare and education, work to get your Senator and Congressperson to change the law. Until then Illegal aliens are criminals. The USA allows more people into our borders legally than any other nation on earth.

People are not considering the other nationalities that are part of the problem too. Terrorists have an open door from the South. People are here on vistor, business and education visas and they disappear into the cities and INS doesn't have any idea where they are or why they are here and make no effort to find them when that visa expires.

I have a friend who is Cuban and she flew her mother here for a visit. She had to pay for "papers" and a visa in Cuba, fly to Cancun and get a flight there to Houston. Same trail getting her back to Cuba. She could have just as easily not gone back and no one would have been the wiser.

Why can't people see this? Are they so naive? Do they not realize these illegals are hurting our economy more than helping it? It's just a matter of time before there is another attack on American soil and I'll bet it will be someone here on an expired education visa or came into the country through Mexico. It wouldn't surprise me If Osama was sitting in Vegas and came up through Mexico to get there.

Do you get the distinction between legal and illegal immigrants . . . . . or not.

<<how much is that going to cost, and has anyone thought it through as to the benefits? Sure its going to cost over 200 billion, who is going to pocket that money?>>

If we're not willing to pay the price of enforcing the law, change or repeal it. Right now, they're illegal and they should be deported, along with their kids born here and misguidedly given citizenship: if they're the children of illegals, they go -- hasta la vista, adios muchachos.

Dana

No argument from me. My only point is that, since the economies of Mexico and the US diverged, the problem has become more and more acute, irrespective of who is in the White House.

http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/health_care.htm

It's ok with those poor black men to be put up in good hotels, meals paid for, until the work is done. Only then will they go back and continue to live off the black women, or more now, white women.

Whats that got to do with anything?

So what? It's still not Spanish. English should be the official national language and no government material (other than possibly tourist info) should be printed in anything else.

<<different areas has different words to describe at times the same object, person, or action. plus each area has a different dialect too.>>

This is true of *any country: North German is quite different from Bavarian German, etc. I fail to see what this has to do with the matter of illegal vs legal immigrants.

maybe so..but they pay taxes :)

I think Hitler would have loved those sentiments. Just shoot them is the answer according to you? Forget about the conditions and situation that brought them here from their own country or the conditions or situation that induces companys to use their labor?

For starters are you ready to pay three times what you are currently paying for groceries as we eliminate 99% of the farm workers and pay higher wages?

Are you ready to pay more at the store for items that are no longer made for $10 in labor and parts and sell for $20 and are now made for $25 in labor and parts and sell for $50?

You may be right. We may still be able to buy cheap items. But they will not be made in the US anymore. THe companies will have moved off shore, maybe to Mexico to set up their plants. They can still have cheaper labor and they wont be paying US taxes.

OH by the way. About the loss of tax revenues from companies that leave the US, and all the other legal people that lost their jobs and are unemployment now, (probably in the double digits and rising), will you be willing to pay more taxes out of your paycheck to make up for that loss in tax revenue?

Yep Shoot em. lol. After you shoot yourself in the foot by expeling them all and not giving any consideration to the economic consequences.

And when you start shooting all these people coming from other countries what do you think those other countries are going to start doing to Americans in their countries in response?

Maybe for the sake of clarification I can alter your question a bit. How do you think the US should approach illegal workers? How do you think the US should approach legal workers?

And your question just raises a ton of more questions for me based on the responses I have seen here. I am amazed at so many responses of outright unbridled venom, spoken from an emotional base, that has no understanding or comprehension about the results for which they are asking for here. The degree of lack of thinking displayed is disturbing. The lack of understanding about the immediate economic impact to our nation and in turn the impact it will have on our standard of living is completely missed. The lack of understanding about what will happen to jobs and the unemployment rate does not seem to be even imagined. The rise in prices for food and goods as a result, no one even seems to think about.

First. Shoot them if they return three times? Can no one really see the consequences for that behavior? If we go shooting them, what kind of response is the rest of the world going to make? How safe would it be for Americans to step outside of our own borders?

Second. So all illegal aliens are removed from the nation tommorow. Then what? There are tons of jobs is assumed. Yet why would there be tons more jobs? Many of those companies, in order to produce goods to compete in the world market will no longer be able to make a profit. What motivation is there to remain in the US if they cannot make a profit, but they can move their entire operation to another country, say Mexico for instance and continue to be profitable. The result would be that all the other employees in that company are let go, and on unemployment.

If the company stays, and pays the higher wages, then they have to charge more for the item that they make, toaster, shoes, shirt, whatever. That means that when you go to the store you are going to be paying more of your money for those items.

There is no doubt that you will immediately be paying three times what you currently are paying for produce. Grapes, corn, peas, carrots, you name it in vegetables. Triple the prices you now see at the store because we got rid of 99% of the farm labor and are paying higher wages to farm workers. So the company to stay in business instead of going bankrupt has to charge more to stay solvent.

Third: Those that are opposed to "guest workers" is very interesting. Prior to Bush there were nearly 400,000 LEGAL visas given to workers to come to the US and work and return home. The Bush administration cut that number to 60,000. Now 400K is ridiculously low to start with when you consider by conservative estimates there are some 10 million illegal workers in the US. But the number 60,000 is nothing short of a joke. Illegal workers do not go home. They stay in the US because they do not want to pay the "coyote" to smuggle them back into the US at a going rate these days of between $1,500 and $2,000. WHile the legal visa workers or "guest workers" return home to Mexico with their families.

It should be noted also here, that those on legal visas can apply for a tax return for money with held for taxes and social security. While the 10 million or more illegal workers are not entitled to file for a tax return or get any money back. The age old argument that the illegal workers do not pay any taxes now is patently false. There may indeed be some who avoid paying taxes because their employer does not require it. But if that company is caught violating the tax laws they could lose their entire business. Much more serious consequences than a fine for illegal workers. The vast majority of those employing illegals with hold taxes. And all that money remains in the US. Do the math yourself. Billions of dollars into the tax revenue of this nation and social security. Get rid of all the illegals and that billions of dollars vanishes. No small wonder Bush cut the number of legal visas or "guest workers" from nearly a half million to 60,000. So the money would stay here and not be returned. Economic facts.

Fourth: With the loss of tax revenue from the companies that left the US so they could stay in business and remain competitive in the world market, the loss of tax money from the illegals, the loss of all the taxes from those who were legally employed, add the cost of double digit unemployment and EVERYONES taxes are going to increase at once. A bigger chunk is going to start coming out of the paycheck of everyone that manages to keep their job.

I recognize a problem. However the solutions that are suggested are ludicrously short minded. The solutions suggested here, shooting them, no guest workers, or immediate deportation of all of them, is a recipe for an economic collapse in the US, because you have no understanding of the impact that it would make on this country or you yourself individuallly in taxes and prices that you pay.

Well,,,, finally someone on this subject makes some sense. I agree with you completely.

Talk all you like about eliminating agriculture jobs. My ag employer laid me off when I refused to learn a foreign language (spanish) to keep my $9/hr job in the country of my birth and hired illegal immigrants to replace all who felt as I did 7 yrs ago. Last year the building supply firm I was working for went out of buisness because our competition hired illegals and my employer would not......Hence we could not compete pricewise with those whose labor base was illegal.

There will always be economic trade offs for any govt policy. Your predictions of economic doom scare me much less than the Drugs and gangs now imported across our boarders do. Higher prices and taxes would be largely offset by reductions in healthcare, education, and law enforcement costs for 11 million illegal aliens.

Last, folks in other countries will treat us much the same as they always do. They will be jealous of our wealth, hate us for our freedom,  rob us if they can, cheat us when they can't and laugh at us for being unable to speak their language. Most of all they will beg for our foreign aid and our tourist dollars. My vision of the future USA is a nation of mostly law abiding citizens. I fear yours is a picture of anarchy and lawlessness controlled by third world rejects and hoodlums.

This country was founded on immigration but immigration with rules. My family came through Ellis Island and had to prove that they were healthy, had money and a sponsor with a job. Immigrants came here to make the country better and to do better than they could have in their home land. Today many, not all, immigrants are here to see what the country will give them. They try to bring their home land here and expect everyone to change to accommodate them. Have you been to Miami lately? Try to find an English speaking store clerk.

We would loose people doing cheep labor. This can be fixed. If you want to continue to collect a welfares check or food stamps then you can work the fields or clean the buildings. It is possible to replace the illegals. Wait make that undocumented aliens we would not want any one to feel uncomfortable.

I'm not sure what state you reside in but every state has standard wage levels and a different cost of living. Now if a company sets up shop in Ca. well you pretty much have to pay 50 dollars an hour just to pay rent. Go to Wisc. and the that same job will pay 10 dollars an hour and you can buy a house for 400 a month total. Here in Houston the job might pay 12 dollars an hour.

Most of the big companies do not hire illegals. They don't want to take the risk. It's the smaller companies that charge like the big companies, pay for cheap labor and in my book they are actually stealing from people. Example - I contracted to put a roof on our building for 56,000 plus materials. The company was independently owned. The day they started the roof the job foreman showed up with 4 non-english speaking Mexicans. One of my employees had a conversation with one of the roofers and learned that they were illegal and getting 50 dollars for a day that lasted 10 hours. Deduct 5 days pay and maybe gas to pick them up and a few odd supplies that we reimbursed them for and that "independent" citizen put over 53 grand in his pocket. He could have paid a fair wage and still made money. That's just greed and if he wants to take his business to Mexico - let him. There are plenty of men here who would have done that job for fair pay.

will you be willing to pay more taxes out of your paycheck to make up for that loss in tax revenue?

By sending all the illegals home - more of my tax money will be freed up thats being used to pay the medical bills they don't, to pay for educating their children that create over crowding, or for the legal system that is caring for the criminal elements of illegals that are in prison. I will see a reduction of my insurance rates because they don't have any so I have to pay for them not to mention a 500 deductible each of the 2 times I have been hit by an illegal. I will see the freeways rid of 75% of the black smoking junkers that cause accidents and pollute the air. I will see an increase in fuel availability since several thousand cars will be off the freeways. Less cars on the freeways mean less road repairs. More tax dollars saved. Now the guy that sells the junkers at an outrageous cost to the illegals will go out of business but who cares? He can move to Mexico or Columbia too.

I don't want to shoot them (although after my new 2-week old car was side swiped on the freeway I was tempted) I just want to send them home until they follow the laws and immigrate here legally and help pay the taxes. Not just Mexicans but ALL illegals.

As an immigrant, I am in direct contact with this side of the society that is in the outskirt of society. This is by choice, because I am a professional who can function anywhere.

Get all of the illegal immigrants out of this country is unrealistic because the economy would not survive without people who are willing to work in a freezer for minimum wage or to work in construction 7 days a week.

The other suggestion is to let the undocumented who gets a job or start a business to get the work permit regardless of how they entered, and how long they long they have been here.

To make more visas available, immigration should concentrate on the people who are here, instead of giving out visas to people who are outside the country. There are plenty of professional here who cannot practice their profession because of documentation.

Lastly, to increase the education of the children of immigrant, who integrate into society, but cannot further their education, college or technical training should be allowed at least for the ones who can afford to pay or who get merit or sport based scholarship. 

What IS the #3 highest GNP of Mexico ??? Oil is #1 income, to give a HINT.... Income from Mexican citizens working in the United States and sending their money home to families and others...IS #3 income producer for Mexico. The "federales" actually try to help IILEGALS to enter the US. This is well known from the "other side". There are many people who immigrate and do it the right way. They are a great blessing to this country and fewer of them are a burden. Too Bad, it takes time to do things right and be a law abiding citizen, and maybe we should better address this area. Giving ILLEGAL people rights that some of us work hard for (including those immigrants who have come here legally and are now citizens) do not have much of is an atrocity and should be an outrage to all LEGAL citizens.

Point is well made....Does the word ILLEGAL mean anything ?

Does the word CITIZEN mean anything ? Immigrants have always been welcome in my book but the problem IS the ILLEGAL situations. If you want to bash a president for immigratin problems, send your bashings to the right President...Vincente Fox.

I worked at PREMIO SAUSAGE, and they couldn't afford to be worried about if their workers had permission to work. they even helped them, because no one else would help them increase their profit to millions, as I saw. I am an accountant and I've seen plenty of Americans cheating on their taxes, like buying jewlery and writing supplies on the check stub. If these people haven't noticed, undocumented are not eligible for welfare even after getting the green card for five years. If there were no Americans willing to break the law, there would be no work available for undocumented workers. The same goes for drugs. people with money are buying them, not the poor. As an accountant, I see plenty of undocumented payment more taxes than many Americans. they own business, required in Florida so larger American-owned companies can avoid worker's compensation insurance, they pay taxes on fake social security so they are unable to get the overpayment back, or they report tax on the newest IRS creation: ITIN, which they allow undocumented to pay social security taxes, but this number is not registered with the SS administration, so this money, according to my research, is kept in a general fund, which most of the contributors will never have a chance to claim. As you see, we can go on and on, and this is very interesting how these bigots "miss" all these details.

nazarete@netscape.com

People are not considering the other nationalities that are part of the problem too. Terrorists have an open door from the South. People are here on vistor, business and education visas and they disappear into the cities and INS doesn't have any idea where they are or why they are here and make no effort to find them when that visa expires.

I have a friend who is Cuban and she flew her mother here for a visit. She had to pay for "papers" and a visa in Cuba, fly to Cancun and get a flight there to Houston. Same trail getting her back to Cuba. She could have just as easily not gone back and no one would have been the wiser.

Why can't people see this? Are they so naive? Do they not realize these illegals are hurting our economy more than helping it? It's just a matter of time before there is another attack on American soil and I'll bet it will be someone here on an expired education visa or came into the country through Mexico. It wouldn't surprise me If Osama was sitting in Vegas and came up through Mexico to get there.

I think most people realize that our entire immigration program is a shambles. It's just obvious that the Mexican problem is impacting our nation in a more catastrophic way on a daily basis.

I know that prayer rugs have been found on the Mexican border and I'm certain it is only a matter of time before someone slips through the cracks who is intent on another terrorist attack. Bush signed a bill that allows Mexican trucks onto our soil without being searched. Can you imagine how easily terrorists could take advantage of that? People who support Bush are supporting terrorists and yet crow about how he's made us so much safer. It's horrible how his administration uses one fear to mask an even more fearful reality in our own country. We won't be safe until we close off our borders and crack down on the amount of people coming here and being selective about who is allowed in. Otherwise.......you might as well be throwing billions of dollars and lives away. 

This is exactly what brought about 9/11. Do you want another one?

You are most likely an uneducated, underemployed bigot, who could not even get through college. I went to college even though I came here alone and as a teenager, own a business, and now I am a citizen. my 13 yo has been invited to skip high school and go straight to college. your american children are getting wasted somewhere. Again, good for you! 

I have a sister in law who is Mexican and her family came here legally, her father started a business and is now very well off.... That's great, I admire her family for doing things right and making a better life for themselves, which is what this country was founded on, a chance at a better life. I have no problem with them.

I have an ex brother in law from el Salvador who came here illegally, he gets paid cash for his job . He had the chance to become a citizen when he and my sister got married, he decided to be lazy and not even try to do it. Now he sits on his ass after work and drinks every day and does nothing and my sister has to pay him child support even though he makes about 20,000 more a year than she does which just adds to the money he gets for breaking the law. That I have a problem with.

in fact the first verse mentioning a husband having more than one wife is in Genesis 4:19. also there is text mentioning on how to take more than one wife Exodus 21:10

a reply to:

I SEE PLENTY OF AMERICANS WHO MULTIPLY LIKE RABBITS AND EVEN TAKE ON MORE THAN ONE WIFE....

a reply to:

If your not a native American you should not be in America.

 And are talking about only those illegals from South of the border, or should we include those illegals from China, the Middle East, Ireland, Italy, & Canada? The question of what to do about illegals has to include those people. The illegal Irish & Italians in N.Y. & N.J. Chinese in N.Y. (They probably made your clothing in Sweat Shops in N.Y.) & Cal. The Middle Eastern Illegals are all over the U.S. (some are no doubt Al Queda. The 9-11s wrer here illegally).

I have a friend whose mother came to this country at age 8 (undocumented, along with her parents), grew up, went to school, worked all her life, and doesn't speak more than a dozen words of American English. Her languages of fluency are Polish, Yiddish, and Russian. Does she go back? To where? The country she was born in doesn't exist any more.

Up until a very few years ago, when we lumped all illegals from Mexico, Central America, and South America under "Hispanic" (illegals from Spain don't count as Hispanic, per INS regs and guidelines, BTW), Mexico just barely made it into the top five contributing countries.

There are more illegals crossing our border with Canada each day then there are from Mexico. Do we send them back? Based on the current track record, it doesn't look like it. Besides, most of them count as white, and almost 50% speak English of one sort or another.

 Get real, will you! If we shoot those who came here, looking for a better life, we become no better then the Nazis & any other group of people thru out history that behaved like them.

 Those illegals come to this country to work the fields (where many Americans won't) with below minimum wages & no bathrooms (they have to use the same fields to Piss & Deficate, that they just picked the crops from, & unable to wash their hands upon returning to picking. Ever wonder how Vegitables get E-coli?) , doing back breaking work in the hot sun. Or they work in sweat shops, for below minimum wage, for 12hrs a day, sewing many of the clothing that we wear.

 Yes, we do need a solution, but shooting the illegals is NOT that!

Do u really think that companies alone are to blame.? As if they stopped hiring illegals then suddenly the illegals would stop comming here? Gimmie a break! there are other incentives for illegals to live here than just financial ones(free medical care, free education,etc...) We need stronger protection at the border level,as well as a universal database for employers,educators,police and medical staff to be able to check the citizen status of these people. As it is now they are a drain on the taxpayer !

whats the problem with them obtaining legal citizenship? As Illegals they are a DRAIN on the taxpayer. Its ludicrous that natural born citizens cant obtain healthcare and scholarships because they are pushed aside by the needs of illegals.

 How's that for a solution! Get Real!

The early immigrants, who established this country, were illegals as they were not invited. They established this country using ideas that they got from the Native peoples already here & then they stole the land from them (half my ancestors among those Native Peoples).

First.......I proposed rule of law. I proposed nothing more than incresaed penalties for existing laws. You are the one trying to preach the idea of shooting people. I merely proposed a death sentence for repeat offenders. I did not recommend a method to carry out such a sentence. I also carefully referred to illegal imigrants as a group. The group consists of many nationalities and races but they have one thing in common. They are all criminals by their total disregard for the laws of the USA that they have entered unlawfully.

Second........you seem to belittle or ignore the fact that millions of so called white immigrants came to this country as indentured servants. They tilled the feilds, picked the crops, shoveled the manure and became household servants to pay their way to this land. Many of these folks came here before Immigration laws were passed, in much the same way the native american tribes came from Asia. You also convienently forget that there was no national government when the first "white settlers" came ashore and most were welcomed by the "native people".

Third.......you accuse me and the rest of the "white Immigrants" of not being willing to pick the crops or take other menial labor jobs. I'm nearly 60 yrs old, I've spent half my life doing exactly that. I've worked on farms for over 20 years......hard backbreaking work 14 hrs a day, 7 days a week. I've worked in lumber mills for minimum wage, I fabricated sheet metal in a very unsafe shop for 5 years. I never got paid over $10/hr my whole life. Only difference between me and the illegal aliens I worked alongside is that I was born in the USA and my ancestors came here legally with proper documents to prove it.

Fourth.....I never said the english language was not influenced by foreign words. I merely recommended that this country not coddle imigrants by allowing them to live here without learning the spoken language of this country. No other country in the world will print legal documents for immigrants in other languages but this one. The foolish state of California prints driver's liscence tests in hundreds of foreign languages. What a waste! I have visited 23 different countries. Not one will educate immigrants in any language than the ones that are approved by their govt. A few of the countries in europe I visited are bi or tri lingual, guess what? Those countries that have more than one language all teach english. So do many countries in Asia.

Now listen up and try to understand me. I am NOT a bigot or a racist. I am a proud citizen of the greatest nation on this earth. I expect all who come here to abide by the laws of this nation as I must do. I expect everyone who wants to live here to respect my country more than the one they came from. The only color I see in true american citizens is red white and blue. I have no respect for those who come here and fly other flags, including the confederate flag of the south. Call me a nationalist. I believe the USA is the place where law abiding folks of all races can work together and be better than the rest of the world. I don't believe we are perfect. I do believe we are better than anyone else............why would the whole world want to come here if we weren't? Do you realise how many countries in the world there are that we could not have this conversation? So don't twist any more of my words. All posts here are valid. Some are sarcastic and some are tongue in cheek and some are very funny! I will tell no lies to you or for you. I volunteered for the military during the Viet Nam war to defend the constitution that allows us all to speak freely. Please don't make me regret that decision by twisting my words to your agenda.

another point i would like to make is the following; i'm a legally admitted alien. every ten years i need to renew my "green card". i did so last year in october, paid the required $185.00 for it. i have not received my new card yet, and when i called the office about it they claimed that it was sent over to me in april of this year. believe it or not, now i have to re-apply, pay the fee again (it went up now to $255.00) and hope, that when they claim they sent it out, i'll receive it.

do all of you realise that INS sends out all of their mail in "regular" mail; that no one is responsible for it after it leaves their office ? except of course those that the mail is supposed to reach, for they have to pay again.

sincerely

Guillaume Cleymans

You are one sick pup!

However, illegal immigrants actually contribute more to our economy than they take out. They work, they pay taxes, but they don't have access to most social services, federal loans, etc.

The USA needs to have a rational policy. If we need X amount of farmworkers, issue work visas for that number. Don't torment people who marry someone from another country, and keep them apart for a year or more, bring the new spouse home! But get serious about enforcement for people with no visa.

Illegals do the work that most of us don't like to do. Lets expel all of them...are you willing to work for $5 an hour six or seven days a week, sleeping or sharing a one bedroom apartment with ten other illegals?

Instead of just talk lets make some good of it, all illegals should prove they are working, issue some kind of a permit that will allow them to stay in this country.

Remember, unless you are american indian none of us belong to this country.

Even without any illegals in this country we will STILL have a major drug problem. Even without illegals in this country we will STILL have a major medical crisis.

------Last year the building supply firm I was working for went out of buisness because our competition hired illegals and my employer would not......Hence we could not compete pricewise with those whose labor base was illegal. ----

Which demonstrates percisely what I am talking about in terms of economic impact. No company will be able to compete on the world market if the cost of labor exceeds a point which they are able to make a profit. In the example you give above, say they remove all illegals. That company goes under. Or the company simply moves to Mexico and opens up shop. They still compete with your company. Your company still goes out of business. What has been lost? The tax revenue from that company is not going to the US anymore but to Mexico. How does that help our economy?

-------Higher prices and taxes would be largely offset by reductions in healthcare, education, and law enforcement costs for 11 million illegal aliens. -------

The healthcare situation would not be altered if all illegals were removed. We would still have a national health care crisis and increasingly more and more of the middle class is unable to achieve basic health care coverage. The problems with the health care system are far more complex and much more related to the insurance industry and the drug companies and the increasing costs of medical care that put it beyond larger segments of the population. Illegals using the medical system have a minute impact in comparison to many other issues and removing all of them would not help the healthcare system.

Crime is down to the lowest levels in almost forty years. The percentage of illegals involved in crime are also a very small percentage of the whole number. Most of the illegals are law abiding just like most US citizens are law abiding.

The problem of illegals is real and needs a solution. However most of what I have seen suggested so far, is a recipe for detrimental impact to our economy on a broad range of issues that I do not think many are even thinking about.

I am in agreement that there is an issue of greed here in some instances but that is not the majority and not the primary impact. The alternative to the above is to have hired a different company, if in fact another company would have done the job cheaper. 

----By sending all the illegals home - more of my tax money will be freed up thats being used to pay the medical bills they don't, to pay for educating their children that create over crowding, or for the legal system that is caring for the criminal elements of illegals that are in prison.----

Those are all the things that are visible that are immediately seized upon as support for the idea that they will improve our economy. However the idea that it will solve any of these situations is weak because the impact is not as great as the exagerated imaginations. Remove all illegals. We will still have a national health crisis. Remove all the illegals and education is still a major issue for our nation. Remove all the illegals. Our crime problem continues unabated. Illegals have a very small impact on ALL of these. Our crime rate is down to the lowest levels in some forty years. Percentage wise the illegals do not make a large segment of our criminal problem. Our health crisis related to insurance costs continue to rise absent any illegals and continues to create a larger and larger number of people that are unable to attain basic health care. As the "baby boomers" from post WWII reach retirement they will have an increasing pressure on our health care system 50x greater than any illegals.

------immigrate here legally and help pay the taxes.--------

The vast majority of the 10 million plus that are here illegally are paying taxes and cannot file for any returns. Which amounts to billions of dollars into the IRS and Social Security.

As to the taxes and social security with held, I am glad that some one recognizes what is going on here as most do not seem to comprehend the economic machine that it has become for the IRS and Social Security. They only see the visible surface issues but not the underlying issues that keep the machine running. Nor do they have any idea what the impact would mean economically in jobs, unemployment and tax revenue. I can only conclude that the government must feel the benefits exceed the detriments or they would be more active in curbing illegals.

Now back to the discussion on illegal immagrants.....

The fact is all illegals pay the same amount of taxes as any legal worker here in the U.S. with the exception they, the majority don't file for income tax refunds like you or me do. Where is all the tax monies they paid? Yes they pay sales tax, but I'm sure that the ones getting paid "off the books" aren't paying any income tax.

"morons" is a word that is not used often enough Name calling is a poor way of trying to validate your opinions.

 If the person doing your yard work can't speak to you in your language, then he doesn't need to be doing your lawn. This is pretty closed minded thinking.

It will take a tougher government than we have had over the years. I would argue that it will take a tougher government than we have had for a long time.

These people are crossing or borders. Many of whom are good people. but whaat about the terrorist , drug dealers, or Cuban prisoner that have crossed illegally. We need tighter borders for safety as well.

Makes sense.

My point is New Orleans needs workers and the majority of workers are Mexicans. Black and white men that are scamming the gov. get out there and help your city. ACT LIKE MEN AND DO THE RIGHT THING.

these people live 10 and 12 to a house or apartment this is not only dangerous but it makes out neighborhoods look like HELL. Again, generalization. This statement could be said of US citizens as well.

People who want to be citizens of this country learn the language. That is the only reason to be here. If someone is doing a service for your home and can't communicate with you, then chances are they are not here legally or don't plan on assimilating. We have people who do our lawn and they're a husband and wife team of Americans. White Americans. So the excuse that there are no citizens willing to do these jobs ("not even the blacks") is insane. Why would anyone hire an obvious illegal when they can have a fellow citizen provide services and make a decent living for themselves? That thinking isn't closed-minded, is close-bordered. More people should think about who they're hiring before they do the hiring. I wouldn't hire anyone who smells of illegal entry and neither should anyone else. If people object to the illegal doing the job, the employer will be forced to hire citizens. BTW An article in the paper today has announced that once again our reps in congress have decided that raising the minimum wage would cut into their good-time bucks. So, once again the American worker is being raped. All the more reason to make certain that your dollars are going to other Americans.

The plan succeeded. Democrats have eliminated the Republicans’ majority in the Senate and have significantly eroded their advantage in the House. An analysis of voting patterns across the country shows that voting by new citizens has been the deciding factor in numerous elections, and in nearly every case, has broken to the Democrats’ advantage.

See above. There you have it, the issue of immigration was actually used by the Clinton white house to enhance the Dems. voting base. Now I see where Hillary is using "illegal" immigration as a base for her run on the white house. I think Bush is wrong to ignore the illegal immigrant issue but I also see that the Dems are willing to use the same to their advantage. Neither party has clean hands in this issue. I am sure many applaud Hillary's stand by forgetting that Bill did the above.

They should be returned from day one. Let them get in the legal way. The cost of feeding,housing and medical could be used else wheres.

Try getting the help we give them in another country, is how far they go to help you stay there

1. Not everyone who crosses the border ,even legally, can learn the language instantaniously

2. I know some people who were born and raised in this country and their communication could be confused with a foreign language.

Why would anyone hire an obvious illegal when they can have a fellow citizen provide services and make a decent living for themselves? I agree with that statement

That thinking isn't closed-minded, is close-bordered I wasn't saying that border control was closed minded. I actually believe that we need to tighten up our borders. I was saying that your view on people not being able to speak english was closed minded.

Thanks for posting and have a great day.

Legal and Illegal Immigration has been a bone of contention for hundreds of years, for every country in the world,

take at a look at the UK, they have millions of Illegals too, they come for the free healthcare and benefits,

I know many people from all over the world, and they all complain about the illegals,
get over it, it has always been that way, and always will be,
America is no different to any other country, and in actual fact they do help the economy of the country they have chosen to settle in, they may drain one section but add to another, it is all swings and roundabouts i am afraid,

I work in an industry where migrant labor is often the only kind of workers willing or capable of doing what needs to get done. Making people on the welfare rolls report for work in these jobs is just not realistic. I have yet to see the day when a qualified american citizen who wanted to work in this industry was turned down in favor of a migrant worker. So the thought or claim that they are taking jobs from american citizens just doesn't wash. For a fact, without their willingness to take menial labor jobs the price of foodstuffs would skyrocket.

American's are going to have to realize that nothing we do to resolve illeagals crossing our boarders will be with out some kind of negitive consequence that effects us all. There is no easy fix to this problem. In fact that there is a problem at all is probably due more to political gamesmanship and fear based media reporting than because there is an actual threat of anykind from any migrant worker I've ever known. 

Like us they just want to work and care for their families. It is a testiment to their personal courage and character that they are willing to go to the extents that they are to achieve that goal. The question in my mind is, of those of you who advocate wholesale deportation, would you be up to doing the same or be willing to report to work in the jobs the migrants leave behind?

I TOTALLY agree with you Delsol, but Moviecash isn't the only poster who doesn't seem to know how to spell and/or who doesn't re-read their posts before sending them to see how they will come across on this board.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that there is a "one size fits all" version of controlling how the illegal immigrant issue is handled, but I do know that SOMETHING needs to be done in the near future. Whether we have a Republican, Democratic or Liberal government in place, they ALL will have to face this problem. I don't believe that one group is to blame, but a good place to start WOULD be with the business sector and then expand on a plan from there.

With regard to the late model cars purchased by illegal immigrants who have no insurance and cause accidents...I don't believe that they should be let off with a summons and a date for a court appearance that they never will show up for. They should be arrested on the spot, taken to jail and placed in a holding cell for deportation back to their own country. Maybe if we're lucky, that would be one of the ways that we end up downsizing some of the illegal immigrant population. I know, I know...Wishful thinking... *small grin*

I am not disagreeing that there is a major problem here. I am disagreeing with the simple quick fixes that are suggested without any consideration for the repercussions.

If the problem were so easy to fix as so many here suggest , and the problem was so straightforward, why then would no administration, both Democrat or Republican seriously tackle the situation forcefully? Why would they hesitate to remove all illegals and seal off the borders more carefully?

Someone in government, after government, after government, be it Democratic or Republican, seem to feel that the benefits out weigh the detriments or the problem would not exist as it does. Someone obviously feels that the problem is far more complex than the surface indications and recognize that the economic consequences far exceed any benefits.

For every example of an illegal getting free medical care because of inability to pay, you will find 1,000 US citizens that cannot pay and are getting free medical care. So you remove the one tenth of one percent, the illegals. Do you honestly believe that the result will be lower medical costs? The problems in our health care system are far greater than can be attributed to the minor impact of illegals getting free care. Even with all illegals gone the health care costs will continue to spiral upward with more and more of the middle class unable to afford basic health care coverage provided to those of third world nations. It s a serious and growing crisis and removing all illegals will not change anything in reality.

As to your contention that over half the crimes in your are are committed by illegals. Sorry but the statistical facts do no support that allegation. I have no doubt that is your perception of reality and that may even be what the media reports to you. The fact is that illegals account for a very small percentage of the over all crime problem. Removing them all will alter nothing.

So we remove them all. Now you claim that crime is heavily in some other areas. Lets say that most criminals are under 5'4. Shall we remove all people 5'4? The argument fast becomes ludicrous.

The truth is that crime continued to drop during Bush Sr.s term in office, During Clintons term in office and during Bush Jr.s term in office. We have the lowest crime statistics since 1965 according to the recent reports in the news in the past week. There fore the argument that the whole problem is because of illegals loses much validity.

I completely concur! The fact that Americans have allowed themselves to be raped and looted for years now, makes us a target for other countries to mock and we certainly deserve every smirk. Americans take all types of assaults on our constitutional rights to a decent life and put it down to "civil rights" and "free enterprise. It's not civil rights or free enteprise at work here. It's greed, buy-outs, political votes and the movement of one country to essentially take hold of another by encouraging their citizens to take it by quiet invasion. It's been a hush-hush subject for years, but a lot of people have been reading about it and seeing the results. The hopelessness of falling wages, lost jobs and use of our tax dollars for the support of illegals has finally pushed for the formation of groups to combat this invasion. Despite the protests of the big-mouths in the hispanic protection mafia, there will be a big, loud bang when the realization that this is not a danger to just the middle class anymore, finally hits the fan. Do you think the Mexican free for all will stop at service jobs? LOL Not by a long shot. Wait until the big shots selling us out now find that they're being "replaced" by a hard-working, sweet-natured, "America-loving" Mexican who strolled across the border and into a society that was willing to give up all they'd worked for to hand out freebies that included college educations because our reps couldn't handle the political fall-out from special interest groups. Whoo! Won't that be funny?

Thanks again for posting an interesting topic. Unfortunately from the responses I do not see much thinking involved beyond short term fixes and no consideration of consequences. I do recognize the problem as a serious one, but I see mostly a thinly disguised bias couched under thinly veiled bias that does not give any consideration to the consequences or the outcome, let alone economic impact.

The important thing that is missed by all in Chertoffs argument here is --- "Almost 900,000 Mexicans caught entering the U.S. each year are returned immediately, but others have simply overwhelmed the existing system with sheer numbers. "

The statement is not clear in the article that you have sited but I have read other articles and heard other reports that are more clear. While the Mexicans are returned immediately, those from other nationalities are given a court date and "order to appear" on that court date, and release into the US. In the courts that handle these cases, 98% of these people are "no shows". To my thinking that translates to a major serious hole in our national security which fails to address the problem of possible infiltration of terrorists into the US. Say a person is from an Arab country. The coyotes encourage them to go ahead and stand up and have the Border Patrol arrest them, because they already know that what will happen is these individuals who are not Mexican will be given an order to appear in court and released into the US. The very people who have the most potential for terrorism are essentially given free access through our borders under the current procedure. That loophole MUST be closed for the sake of national security.

Pre Bush there were legal work Visas. A Mexican could apply, the company wishing to hire them had to demonstrate that they had tried to hire US citizens for the job and could not. Then the company pays the $1,200 -$1,500 per worker to get a legal work Visa. The Visa has a specific duration of time. The worker MUST reutrn to Mexico or the company faces fines. In the past these workers came in typically for a few months or six month as season employees, worked the job, and returned to Mexico. However, the Bush administration dropped the legal work Visas placing a cap of 60,000 nationally. A ridiculously low number when we have some 1,000 employed in our small community alone, on those legal work visas. So the cap on legal visas is put in place. But the jobs that they were emplyed in still need workers. The businesses still cannot get any response from ads they run in the newspaper for help. So these workers now return to the jobs, this time as illegals. If they did not, these businesses would be forced to close shop. Landscaping, gardening, housekeeping for hotels and motels, industrial plant labor, construction labor, farm workers. All jobs typically long hours

A factual example, an ad was run in the newspaper for six months in advance of summer asking for employees to work with a major landscaping company. Starting in January the ad ran every week in the newspaper. The ad continued to run March, April May. Not a single applicant for jobs starting at $10. an hour to $15. an hour. The job was typically 12 hours a day, six and seven days a week depending on rain. No Americans would work those hours. The company then applied for and received 12 legal work visas and brought legal workers from Mexico. At the end of the summer when the jobs were done and winter started, they all went home. Taxes and SSI was with held from those checks. They were legal workers so they could file for and get money returned to them.

Now Bush limits the Visas to 60,000 nationally. The company applies for 12 legal work visas and gets none. They are out of business. OR the workers from the previous year re enter the US illegally and come to work. They pay the coyote to get into the US instead of the US government fees. They still have taxes and SSI taken from their check but they are not permitted to file for that return as they are not legal despite providing green cards and social security numbers. When the work is done at the end of the summer, most of them do not return to Mexico because they will have to pay the Coyotes again to get back into the US. LEGAL workers go back to their homes and families in Mexico. Illegal workers do not. The action of Bush in putting a cap on 60,000 legal work visas nationally only exacerbated the problem and did nothing to alleviate the situation. EXCEPT, the government now kept the tax and SSI on those employees that could not file for a return as they are illegal.

The bottom line is, that the situation is a crisis. But there is no easy fix. And apparently the government believes the financial gains exceed the financial costs, or it would not still be happening.

The loss of 206 billion a year is substantial incentive for the Government to continue business as usual at the current illegal worker rate, rather than make changes.

Yet some here are even opposed to the legal work visas, which indicates they have little understanding of how the problem works or what the economic impacts would be.

I believe you could hire enough border officers to link arms across the entire border of the US and it would not put a dent in the illegal workers getting into this nation. Spending more money on border patrol officers is just flushing more money down the toilet. It alters nothing. The problem is far far bigger than that easy fix.

The problem is that factually the impact on the health care system is less than one percent of the total costs, the problem on the welfare system and crime system represents less than 3 % of the total costs.

On the other hand, the loss of revenue economically runs into billions per year. Absent farm workers prices on produce will increase 3x what you currently pay at the store.

Yes its a problem. But a far more intelligent solution than any simple quick fix without any consideration for the economic consequences are not going to help, only make the problem worse in other areas.

But perhaps more significant than the sheer numbers of people who settled here during the Clinton years, was the dramatic redefinition of the purpose of immigration policy and the relationship between immigrants and their adopted country. Two subtle, but significant shifts occurred during the last eight years that are worth noting: U.S. citizenship was turned into a political commodity, and immigrants became America’s “customers.”

After losing control of both houses of Congress in the 1994 election to the Republicans, Clinton embarked on a program to reshape the electorate in a way that was more to his liking. In addition to using his considerable powers of persuasion to win back public support, he set about creating a new American public. The administration directed the Immigration and Naturalization Service to mint new citizens in time to vote in the 1996 elections. Under the direct control of Vice President Gore, the Citizenship USA program was tasked with naturalizing as many noncitizens as they could possibly find in time to participate in the next election.

A site called Federation for American Immigration Reform.

?? Canadians speak a different language than the US??

Or are you talking about the deserters from the Armed Forces who voluntarily entered the service then decided they didnt want to stay for their full contract?? There are 30+ deserters in Canada right now facing deportation for being ILLEGAL. Do you think they should be sent back to the states with no judicial hearing?? Or how about just shooting them like someone else on this forum has suggested??? By the way they are working illegally in Canada.

Of course I understand the difference. Do you understand that a child born in the US is automatically becomes a US citizen.?? Do YOU approve of Clinton using the immigrant vote for his own agenda? Do YOU know any people personally that work in fields doing stoop labor? I was just trying to point out that both the Dems (for political gain) and the Reps (for business gain) utilize the immigrant problem both legal and illegal.

2. If terrorism is being effectively fought then how in the name of Pete are 900,000 mexicans making it across every year without government help ?

The government is helping them by turning their heads and winking every day and not even making an attempt to bring them in and send them home. Illegals have become a highly explosive controversy that no administration wants to handle effectively.

P.S. Indians did tell the White Devil's to leave. Instead of leaving they killed all the Buffalo, starving the Indians into submission. The White man took their land, Raped their women and put them on reservations. If my memory of history serves me correctly Mexicans also told the White Devil to go home. Instead the White Devil conquered the Mexican and took the State of Texas for their troubles

I all ready noted I have Indian ancestors and at this time of my life considering where and how I live - it is a part of history that unfortunately happened that put me here. And yes - remember the Alamo. Texas fought hard to win their independence and from 5 Sovereign countries. And the Americans fought to settle this land we call home. Aren't you glad? History doesn't always tell a pretty story and hopefully we learn from it. The sad thing we are still fighting to keep what we have and the freedom we enjoy. And I for one will keep fighting. 

I certainly agree with you post. But now you are on the Democrats sh*t list for sure.

indeed. last time i checked in these forums, the standard language is broken english, typically with spelling and grammar below 9th grade standards.

lest we forget, the first europeans here spoke...spanish.
now our hispanic brethren, legal and illegal, are the fastest-growing ethnic group in the country. as you may have noticed in many urban settings, in order to provide constituent service, government and other institutions have become bi- or multilingual. so have a multitude of packaged consumer products, DVD movies, software, ATMs, help lines, sales people, and, indeed, politicians. mr. and mrs. bush speak fairly decent if accented spanish.

my nearest ATM offers transactions in english, spanish, russian (a thousand soviet emigres in the nabe, many of them with substantial assets, most obtained lawfully), french (no idea why), and polish. of course, that's spelled "polilish." not sure if the funds are denominated in zlotys.

kind regards,

*gig*

ROFLMAO...............!

aha. like mara salvatrucha, sombra negra, or another of those central american gangs with WMDs.

"we don't want the cuchifritos to be a mushroom cloud."

psst. the small nuke will not enter the u.s. in a group of people smuggled by coyotes. the perpetrators, like those of 9/11, will have all their papers in order.

then again, maybe you and the administration would like to place mexico, guatemala, honduras, and nicaragua on the axis of evil, and pre-emptively invade as soon as we're finished with iraq, iran, syria, and el barrio.

viva NAFTA. viva los maquiladores. viva la huelga. venceremos.

kind regards,

casimir

really. and how many of those would there be, and what do they cost the government in terms of dollars and % of annual outlays?

how much does the average SSI recipient get? what does your state pay in cash welfare benefits per person, and for how many months? what is the average value of food stamps to a family of four? oh. and why don't you see people with food stamps in the checkout line any more, so now you can't view them with contempt?

you have no idea, do you? and you have no interest in finding out

wassamatta? middle-class entitlements aren't enough for you? bush tax cuts didn't save you enough of your hard-earned money? bummer.

here's a thought: get rich. top tax rate on unearned income -- dividends, capital gains, etc. -- is 15%. top rate on wages and salaries is 35%. reward wealth, penalize work.

but hey, this is america, so you have all the opportunity to make a fortune as they next guy. as an alternative, take your assets and emigrate to mexico, where the dollar goes a lot further. oh. and the price of flour for tortillas is low because of popular, long-standing government subsidies.

vaya con dios.

kind regards,

casimir

whereas the farmer type Native Americans stayed where they had crops growing. like the Dinahs

a reply to:

 But you know that Indians did not think in terms of owning the land, they went where ever the food was and lived with the land

a reply to:

2. I know some people who were born and raised in this country and their communication could be confused with a foreign language.

a reply to:

That's a sad but often true story. Children will and do suffer for what their parents do. Surely since you have married an American citizen you are "legal" now. There are many stories of women overseas who wanted to marry American servicemen just to be able to enter the country legally. In cases such as yours - the government should make some kind of allowance for legal status.

a reply to:

What part of this discussion did you miss???? ILLEGALs DO NOT PAY TAXES !! They work under the table, for the most part, for cash.

What did you dowms425s????

As far as illegals, who do you suggest to clean up the mess in N.O. Without illegals there would not be too many people rushing to work in the contamination to make the money to feed their families. Those that came should be given citizenship.

Again, what did you do and what are you doing now whilst you are bitching and calling names?????????

<<I agree. Most people, in this country are blind to what those immigrants do for us. They should go spend a week working in those jobs to see how hard they work for the low wages that they make. And many manage to send part of it home to feed their kin. Many Americans won't even do that to save for when they need it (retirement, unemployment, etc).

The early immigrants, who established this country, were illegals as they were not invited. They established this country using ideas that they got from the Native peoples already here & then they stole the land from them (half my ancestors among those Native Peoples).>>

thanks. points well taken. did i mention that i'm a big fan of buffy ste.-marie? <s>

hey, at least my own dutch ancestors, who arrived here with no passports, no visas, no green cards, only the profit motive, paid your ancestors for manhattan. even after they flipped the property to the british, for nutmeg no less, they continued to prosper in the family business, human resources import/export.

collective guilt? nahh. the other side of the family is polish. my grandparents were illiterate in both english and their native language, but gave each of five children a brick house, deeds signed with an "X."

kind regards,

casimir

<<Actually anyone who engages in criminal activity (such as criminal tresspass) ia a criminal, whether or not they're convicted. The activity itself is what makes one a criminal-not the conviction.>>

i gather you are a moral philosopher, not an attorney.

as to immigration law generally, it seems to be unenforceable in at least 11 million cases, and impractical to enforce on those 11 million now. no enforcement, no deterrent, no consequences, law honored only in the breach, and thus not much of a law except on paper. again, do review congressional efforts to make the law effective.

<<As for the economy is dependent on them-Bulloney. Yes prices would go up if all the illegals were deported (which will never happen), But no, we are not dependant. That's just another argument from the apologists who want illegals here, for whatever reason. Many industries where there used to be decent paying jobs with good benefits are now low paying jobs with no benefits. It isn't the economy that's dependent, it's people who want the US economy to be done on the cheap who are dependent.>>

don't take my word for it. check out business week and the WSJ, hardly liberal media. also note which businesses are lobbying to make the illegals legal. i wouldn't call the majority of the fortune 500 "apologists."

as to "industries where there used to be decent paying jobs with good benefits are now low paying jobs with no benefits," you forgot to add that some industries are no longer in business here. compete or lose. for that, thank the laws of the free marketplace. violate those at your peril. whatever the congress does or does not do, those laws cannot be repealed, and are invariably, universally obeyed, one way or another, willingly or otherwise

welcome to the global economy.

kind regards,

casimir

Whatever it takes, keep these people out of the United States.

Mike Bennett

Wheelersburg, Oh

These "state sponsored" interests are largely ignored due to the partisian discussions that are abundant in the US concerning racism, blame for Politicians of Dems, Reps, Inds, and general crap that other countries take advantage of. Plain, but not simple, our "friends" south of the border are stabbing us in the back with their hands in our pockets so much more than those hapless fodder of persons that come here trying to care for their families the best way they can in the Best country on earth. They get used as illegals here, and they get used for $ by their own country's leaders!

I regularly go back and forth from San Antonio to Monterrery Mex, and hear much more truth by listening to the "horse" being ridden on both sides of the border.

Have a great weekend

I am well aware of what is going on and it legitimately is a big problem. However in terms of the total picture of problems in our health care system even if it were completely removed it will not put a dent in the health care system problems of our nation and to think otherwise is simply not accurate.

The quick fixes I see offered like simply removing all illegals from our country will have economic impacts that are not being addressed or even considered. Dealing with the symptom, what is seen visibly on the surface, does not address the underlying causes and no quick fix is going to remedy the situation without taking full consideration of those causes.

The vast majority here indicate by their comments they have not given the slightes consideration to why. They just want to be rid of it. And the methods they suggest will have a greater detriment to the economy than they understand.

WHAT ABOUT THE ONES WHO WORK THRU A STAFFING AGENCY, THEY DON'T GET PAID

CASH AND LIKE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US THEY TAKE OUT THEIR TAXES . FACTORIES ALSO

EMPLOY THEM AND AGAIN THEY DON'T PAY CASH , OF COURSE I KNOW THERE ARE SOME

WHO DO BUT DON'T GENERALIZE EVERYTHING

Lingua franca

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

A lingua franca is any language widely used beyond its native speakers, primarily for international commerce but extending to other cultural exchanges, such as diplomacy. The origin of the term lingua franca is Italian (literally "Frankish language"), derived from the medieval Arab and Muslim use of "Franks" (ancient Germans) as a generic term for Europeans during the period of the Crusades.

Originally "lingua franca" referred to a mix of mostly Italian with a broad vocabulary drawn from Turkish, Persian, French, Greek and Arabic. This mixed language (pidgin, creole language) was used for communication throughout the medieval and early modern Middle East as a diplomatic language; the generic description "lingua franca" has since become common for any language used by speakers of different languages to communicate with one another.

In an important sense, the terms "lingua franca" and "diplomatic language" remain distinct; the former refers largely to spoken languages which find common use, while the latter is typically limited to common written systems which do not directly find use among the common public. A prime example is Akkadian, which (as shown in the Amarna letters,~1350 B.C.) was used for correspondence between Egypt and its Canaanite vassals, and neighboring kingdoms, as far away as Babylon. Akkadian, being one of the first "diplomatic languages", contained Sumerograms, from Sumer, the sumerogram being many hundreds of years older, from the beginning of written language. This diplomatic-level communication would, over time, serve language (hence cultural) transculturation, eventually developing the Greek and Roman writing systems, that we currently use today.

During the Roman Empire and for the following millennium the lingua franca was Greek in the east and Latin in the west. The French language also served as lingua franca later on. French was the language of diplomacy in Europe from the 17th century until its very recent replacement by English, and as a result is still the working language of international institutions and is seen on documents ranging from passports to airmail letters. French was also the language used among the educated in cosmopolitain cities in North Africa such as Cairo, Egypt around the turn of the century until WWII. German served as a lingua franca in portions of Europe during the 19th and 20th centuries, especially in business, politics, science (physics), and sociology. English is the current lingua franca of Western international business and has also displaced French in diplomacy since World War II, a trend arguably ignited by the conduct of French- and respectively English-speaking nations during the war (the de facto status of lingua franca is usually "awarded" by the masses to the language of the most respected and influential nation(s) of the time), and certainly inf
...[Message truncated]

I have read the link you provide regarding the Center for Immigration Studies and I have read a dozen othe links like that. I understand the arguments that are made about the financial impact. But that is only one part of a much bigger picture and the failure to see the bigger picture undermines much of the arguments that are made here by these groups. They fail to recognize or address the billions of dollars in tax and social security revenue that is gained. They fail to recognize the other sublime involvements in our economics. All of these sites scream that removing the illegal aliens will lower healthcare, education and crime related costs. That simply is just not supported by statistical analysis.

Yes they are part of the problem. Yes they are a negative draw on these resources. Remove them completely and I do not see how anything will change significantly in healthcare, education and criminal related expenses. I do see an immediate impact instead to the economy that will NOT provide more jobs as is falsely believed.

--- In Texas alone illegals are costing us over 3.7 BILLION dollars a year in healthcare, education and incarceration. ----

Rather than dispute how those figures were arrived at lets accept they are true. Read again the article. A loss of 206 billion dollars a year removing all illegals. Even though we acknowledg Texas is a larger state, lets assume that all states are the same. That would be roughly a 200 billion a year change. Yet a deficit still remains of six billion a year before you even factor in the economic impact on businesses. That number could easily be another 200 billion not to mention the additional costs involved that will be incurred by the public at large like the tripling of cost for produce at the grocery store. You are still dealing with negative numbers.

The fact is that despite the government being Democrat or Republican in the US, there appears to be a belief that the negatives are outweighed by the positives. That is something no one seems to want to hear or address. All I can conclude is that is the ONLY reason the situation could continue to exists. If the negatives out weighed the benefits the government would have stepped in to do something about it.

That is why I contend that while much of the posts here discuss the blatant visible wrongs, there is no discussion of the underlying issues that allow this situation to exist. They are all suggestions for a quick fix to treat the symptoms....eliminate the rash, not why the rash exists. And many of the suggested "fixes" are in my estimation going to make the rash far worse. Until the underlying conditions are addressed, simply focusing on the symptoms and removing the symptoms will solve nothing.

This problem of illegals has been going on for a couple of decades. I have been reading studies on the problem and its growth for some fifteen years now. Its not new. It has only lately been a focus that the public at large has started to respond to but it has been happening for some time. Its not going away with any miracle cures, quick fixes or rash decisions.

IT is a problem I totally agree. It has been a problem and grows. It is going to continue until a more intelligent solution is arrived at than the simplistic answers offered here, thus far. I do not pretend to know the solution or answers . I do know that the end result of removing all illegals today from the US will have an economic impact to all of us tommorow that is negative not positive, despite all the short sighted arguments that jobs and conditions will improve. I do not see how they could possibly improve, given the circumstances as they exist and the economics involved here, simply by removing all illegal workers / aliens.

As I stated we agree to disagree. The last question you asked is the same one I might ask of you. I have read hundreds of articles with facts and data and none from companies coming forward to say how important illegals are to our economy.

I live in a border state and we have been concerned and complaining about the illegals for years. Why won' t the government do anything? I don't believe it has anything to with our economics. I think it is such a touchy subject and any administration that tackles it will have to deal with organizations like the ACLU. It might end up being political suicide for any political party. They don't want to be the bad guy. The cold hearted President (party) that violates the rights of another human being.

We are hurting our country not helping it. It seems when someone says illegals they all think it is JUST the Mexican's. They are the majority but so many others are coming here and everyone seems to be more concerned about fruit pickers or business leaving this country because there are no Mexican's. This is a land where necessity seems to find a remedy. That will be another we would work with.

I personally think there are plenty of people that would take those jobs. And yes the companies would have to pay a little better and give benefits. If not well-all the lawn companies can move out of the country. Let the boys mow the grass. Let college students (who have a very difficult time finding summer or part time work here) take the construction work and the woman trying to feed her kids wait tables. There are very few major companies that employ illegals. ANY company that does any work for the government can lose their vendors status if they (we) hire illegals so I really think the government is a bit concerned about them too. They hired a few at a nuclear plant and fired them when they realized they weren't legal. So I guess they will move that out of the country too. Fort Bragg hired a couple of men from Pakistan that had false papers. Fired them. I don't see Fort Bragg leaving. SO the logic that ALLLLL these companies will leave won't wash. We buy most of our clothing from other countries now and I don't see a change there. Construction owners will only pocket 25,000 out of ever 50,000 they make.

What I do see is a feeling of being safer and saving money state wide and nationwide after all is said and done. Yes it will cost us to send them all back unless we change our deportation. If they are illegal we put them on a bus or a plane and send them back. Now we have to "detain" them while we research whether they have committed a crime. Then we have to transfer them to another facility and have them examined and oh yes if they had a dreaded disease - we don't send them back. We hospitalize them until they are cured or dead.

So you can't convince me it will hurt more than help and I can't convince you it will help more than hurt. I'd say it's a draw.

I accept that. Just one last question.

 Why do you think that no matter who is in power, Democrat or Republican, if the bottom line figure is truly a negative number, why does no administration do something effective to alter the reality that the number of illegals increases instead of decreases? Why does no government stop it if there are no benefits?

Im not being faceitious. Im trying to understand what you think is the cause and why it does not get fixed? I have given my reasons why I do not think the problem is getting fixed and I would like to hear other ideas.

I've given this question a lot of thought. This may be a little far fetched but here goes. It is political . Mexico borders our country and their economy is the one that benefits from the illegals and from the drug dealing. Their sick come here and we treat them. Our money goes their and we lose tax money and it doesn't boost our economy.

If we close the borders we make an enemy. An enemy that is a river or a line in the sand away from American soil. How easy it would be for Al Quida (sp) to infiltrate and convince Mexico that it is to their benefit to become an ally? Or even the gangs, guerrillas and drug lords of Columbia? El Salvador? Or any other country that wanted to get this close to us. Mexico has no real army. How easy would it be to just overthrow that government? As it stands now other countries know the United States would be there to defend them because we would be defending ourselves too. If they can get that close they have an airport to land enemy planes, a place to stage weapons and armed forces to use against us. We could be the next Palestine. In this case it is to our benefit to keep Mexico a friendly ally and I think the government sees that and uses the cheap labor as an excuse.

I still say the illegals need to be routed out and sent back to so that we may get possible or potential terrorists out of here. I would agree with a "guest worker" plan. It would have to be controlled. Fingerprints of everyone that crosses the borders to work. No one that has committed a crime there or here allowed to cross. You commit a crime here, break a law - you go back and you can't cross again. They have to have immunizations to protect us from disease. Maybe something that tells us they are healthy so our healthcare won't take such a big hit. If nothing else build a hospital on the Mexican side and that's where the sick go and let them treat their own and absorb some medical costs. No babies of a "guest worker" automatically becomes a citizen. Maybe have them check in on a regular basis to insure they don't fade into the woodwork and get lost in the system. They pay taxes. Companies that pay those slave wages would have to obey the laws too and up the pay to at least minimum and carry some kind of workers comp insurance on them if nothing else. Maybe even a certain number per year allowed in. Maybe a lottery. Maybe a rotation. Something that would be fair for all because the demand to work here would be tremendous and without control we would be overrun. Mexico's economy would benefit, the people would benefit and our border might be a bit safer.

I don't have all the answers but I do think we need to do something . It has gotten out of control.

My question is exactly who does Bush think should have more freedom than the others in America. While 70 percent of taxes are produced by American Taxpayers, Corporate America appears to be the only group that gets Protectve legisslation or protection period while individual American Rights are eroded through Anti Terrorist and Child Protective Laws. I am frablky tired of the Republican produced scare tactics.

Regarding Freedom: That is something that we will never see again in our life time. I rememebr wehn our government complained that Russia only had 5 percent of the population governing and regulating 95 percent. I believe the same could be said for America.

Regarding Mexicans being a big problem: Wasn't NAFTA supposed to address this back in 1992 when the Eu was beginning to form so that we could further protect ourselves and our economy from being eroded . Wouldn't it make more sense to strenghten Mexico's economy than to force Mexico to remain a 3rd world Nation?

To be blunt I've though about swimming the Rio Grande to get away from our own oppressive government. Unfortunately Mexico has a policy of throwing Americans back the the U.S. upon request. LOL I visited Mexico about a year ago and found it very refreshing to see what our county was 50 years ago. A people and a society responsible for themselves and their individual actions.

I believe the real problem is a Republican Political Agenda that is aimed more at gut wrench scare tactics based on bare faced lies and half truths. I also believe that there isn't a Democrat with enough Balls out there to stand up and fight these injustices and we the American People are left to suffer

I find it hard to believe that our current leadership who were born in the 60's era who spake of Freedom, Free Love, Chanted Anti Establishment Slogans, Burned Their Bra's, Either Listened to Acid Rock or were dropping Acid are now our leaders who tell us it was ok for them but bad for the younger generation.

What I find most hard to swallow is the younger generations attitude that yu should question anyone who doesn't agree with our leadership rather than question our leaders.

I've had several people to accuse me of being angry in my postings. It is not anger that I want to express but downright confusion.

Would someone please tell me when we the American people stopped fighting for our Constitutional Rights and Freedoms and decided to settle for whatever the Government decided that we should have?

I agree its out of control and I also do not have the answers but I think in your own statements that you recognize some of the factors below the surface are based in economics and politics that reach beyond any quick or simple fix that we just remove them all immediately.

Russia and China suffer communications problems to this day making it all but immpossible for one person to communicate their needs to the other. If we don't quickly get a handle on the language problem in America we will no doubt suffer the same consequences.

If America can be so involved in One World Government then why doesent it make sense to insure that we can all communicate in the same language?

For once I think that someone had a geat idea.

If you broke our laws to get here, you should have to leave!

I'm not against immigration at all. My great great grandparents were immigrants. They came here legally, learned the language, the history and customs of this country and became citizens. That's how it's suppose to be done. Anything else is unacceptable. I say kick them out and make them do it right.

Another good idea would be to tattoo everyones social security number on their arm, how do you feel about that idea? That would solve the problem would it not?

U.S PAYS TAXES THOSE TAXES THAT ARE BEING TAKEN OUT ALL GO FOR US FUNDS SOCIAL SECURTY,

EDUCATION,WELFARE ETC.<

This is a joke, right?!? Tell me you're not serious about this statement. If you are, you should just fold up your tent and call it quits. That statement is ludicrous. Immigrants have a great history of contributions to this nation. The difference is their status... LEGAL! In the subject under discussion ILLEGAL should mean something. Nowadays people are trying to play "politically correct" with ILLEGALS by calling them "undocumented aliens". That stinks so bad that holding my nose doesn't even help! P-U!

In case you did not hear the NPR story last week or read about the situation in New Orleans, companies have been offering jobs at $17 to $22 an hour to help with the clean up. Those getting $22 an hour are emptying and cleaning refridgerators at the dump. Every company has complained that they could not get workers. SO they have been hiring illegals and now everyones upset. Not with the fact that Americans refused to take the jobs, but with the hiring of illegals. Interesting. All the whining that they take jobs from US citizens. Here is clearly another example, Americans will not even do the work for handsome sums of money, let alone minimum wage pay.

One worker who is American of Mexican descent had his own company two states away. He left to come to New Orleans to work and is making $1,000 a day sometimes $1,500 a day. He tried to hire a crew of Americans to bring with him and no one would take the job at $18 an hour. He figured he would hire people when he got to New Orleans. But there are no Americans that are willing to live in tents out side without plumbing and work 12 hour days so he too is hiring illegal workers.

Wait, wait, just a minute. Now how about all the poor blacks (& some whites) that we saw constantly day in, and day out on television during & after the disaster .......the people whom America reportedly ignored, and we were all made to feel guilty for? They did not grab up those jobs enmasse?

No they sure did not. Which poses some valid questions about why? WHy is it not those people from New Orleans that are being offered the opportunity to rebuild their city, or why are they not taking these excellentlly paid jobs?

The earlier post stated that the employers cleaning up New Orleans couldn't find enough workers, and therefore had to rely on illegals, resulting in an uproar over the hiring of illegals. This could be an interesting discussion, after the "guilt trip" over the poor that we all were put on, not only from TV commentators, but some of the poor themselves. When given the opportunity to work, and earn some good money, no one shows up after all the yelling on TV screens. Could this be just the welfare mentality, or was the earlier post simply misquoted? Who the heck wants to be poor!

The fact also weakens the argument of those who wish to kick out all illegals for taking jobs that Americans want. Where indeed were all the Americans on unemployment crying about illegal workers taking their jobs?

Sorryo, nolo speako the spico

This coffee house discussion regarding the poor under welfare not accepting work in New Orleans despite the nice wages brought out some interesting reasons. Seems like under the U.S. welfare system, if one earns income, benefits are reduced, which includes housing allowance, dental, medical, eye care, child care, subsidised school breakfasts & lunches, no fees for medications, and including the monthly checks the family receives. One stands the chance of losing all, should they earn "too much," said on person. Maybe it's the system instead, that needs to be fixed. In the meantime, those "illegal immigrants" doing the work are earning the $300-500 each day, even without the benefits welfare people get, and probably laughing all the way to the post office, where they're sending the monies to Mexico!

Sorry but that argument doesnt fly with me. So they are cut off completely from welfare. So what. They are earning ten times or twenty times what welfare would have paid them. They are earing in a a months time what they would have made in a year on welfare.

To my way of thinking instead of the notion here " one stands a chance of losing all" they instead have a chance of gaining everything including independence from the welfare system. What could possibly be wrong about that?

I agree, and perhaps there are ones who sincerely want to be independent of welfare, but try to convince the many, even with the high pay, as the case in New Orleans, where they can't get enough workers. It would be like trying to convince smokers to quit, even if it would make them healthier. The system, as our talk group discussed, needs fixing, as the welfare system when considering all the benefits from health, medical, housing, etc, seems generous. Some recipients, I understand, live in nicer homes than many under the Section 8 housing allowance, unlike the public housing apartments that we saw on TV. There really should not be any problems with poverty in this rich country!

If all those who had been evacuated from New Orleans that were on Welfare rolls had been moved to a closed army base (s) they could have been provided immediate work in the library, px, commisary, theater, recreation halls, etc. All able bodied could have received training in electrical, plumbing and construction and trained in jobs to return and hep rebuild New Orleans at decent wages with future employment prospects.

Instead they will return to new orleans in the same shape as a draw on the economy.

The fact that no americans will take the jobs in new orleans at very hi wages weakens any arguments that illegals are taking jobs that americans would do. Where are all the unemployed that cannot find work? Why are they not there?

If there are no other alternatives to cleaning up New Orleans than hiring illegals as Americans will not stoop to that type work, then more power to those who want the job. However, it shouldn't mean an open-door policy to allow illegals to overrun the borders because of such isolated work examples. On the other hand, I feel people in the U.S. should not be denied services, or benefits of this rich country whether they are illegal, or citizens, and we certainly do have many U.S. citizens who do live below the poverty line.

What's the solution to the illegal immigration problem - specifically Mexican? Considering the vast expanse of fertile lands in Mexico, the oil resources, extensive sandy beach coastlines, eager & creative workforce, much natural resources, beautiful culture & peoples................why not include Mexico into our folds, make her part of the U.S! Why not? Too far fetched? Can the history of the U.S. reveal something which we have only taken for granted, and no longer question? 

Personally, I think we should put nuclear facilites along the border, spray the dusty feet with radioactive waste when they sneak across, and then we can find them at night, because they will all be glowing in the dark.

Yep, works for me.

just gotta watch out when those glowing prints track up to oklahoma.

kind regards,

casimir

After being a creditor nation for several centuries, "this rich country" is now the biggest debtor nation in human history, with an OFFICIAL $18 trillion in debt and no Personal Savings (and the only industrialized nation in the world, including the other 4 debtor nations, with a negative Personal Savings rate).

Part of the problem is that people like you seem to think that just because Chinese soldiers haven't raped your wife yet that all is ok. Being broke ain't ok, and soon enough the Chinese soldier will have enough of our dollars that he can BUY your wife.

"Americans will not stoop to that type of work" because ILLEGAL aliens took those jobs from them, made themselves so dangerous and undesirable that no self-repsecting White wants to be around this criminal class who the Mexican government sent here instead of Mexican prisons, and by their mere presence degraded the image of jobs that used to be attractive to the point that not even Mexicans want the job.

We don't owe Mexicans a blasted thing. We certainly don't owe them "services, or benefits" when providing them denies services and benefits to the WHITES who built and paid for it in the first place, when we're already BROKE, and when providing them contributes to their own criminality. Ditto for blacks http://exileblacks.com

Terry

Don't know where you're coming in from, Terry, but #l, I think your view of the Chinese is strictly from propaganda, and I suspect that a lot of your personal stuff is made in China, and you have, at one time or other, shopped at a WalMart. I visited China, and can tell you that it was safer in Beijing at nite, than N.Y. or S.F. It has been stated that China with over 1.4 billion, does not even have a fourth of the crime numbers as the U.S. #2, let's give the Mexicans, and Blacks some credit for the building of the great USA, and not only for the Whites " who built and paid for it in the first place." Besides, their kids are being so professionally trained, that one of them might someday treat you for some serious illness. Plus wouldn't it be great to be treated by a beautiful nurse resembling Halle Berry for a change?

<<<Don't know where you're coming in from, Terry, but #l, I think your view of the Chinese is strictly from propaganda, and I suspect that a lot of your personal stuff is made in China, and you have, at one time or other, shopped at a WalMart. I visited China, and can tell you that it was safer in Beijing at nite, than N.Y. or S.F. It has been stated that China with over 1.4 billion, does not even have a fourth of the crime numbers as the U.S. #2, let's give the Mexicans, and Blacks some credit for the building of the great USA, and not only for the Whites " who built and paid for it in the first place." Besides, their kids are being so professionally trained, that one of them might someday treat you for some serious illness. Plus wouldn't it be great to be treated by a beautiful nurse resembling Halle Berry for a change?>>>

Having been mugged twice in our nation's "capitol", but never in Asia, Europe, nor Russia where I've travelled extensively (including Beijing), I agree wholeheartedly with you about the muchlower crime rates there, though you're a bit off on your estimate of how much less dangerous it is. With China's homicide rate less than 1 per 100,000 population, in 1993 you were 80 TIMES more likely to be murdered in DC than in China:

http://fathersmanifesto.net/japus.htm

"give the Mexicans, and Blacks some credit for the building of the great USA"

You give them credit, because I'm not going to. Blacks in the US today cost us $850 BILLION more in social transfer payments EACH YEAR than they contribute to GDP, and Mexicans another $230 billion, and this is almost three times the economic output of the entire Continent of Africa (with 800 million blacks). At the height of slavery, there were only 400,000 black slaves, and it's doubtful if they were ever as productive as their cousins in Africa who currently earn a whopping $50 per month. With slaves probably being half as productive, the most these slaves produced in a century was ($25 x 12 mos/year x 400,000 slaves x 100 years) = $12 billion.

They get more than that in the first week of the year: $850 billion / 52 weeks/year = $16.3 billion per week.

http://fathersmanifesto.net/blackcosts.htm

Terry

ps--Here's a great insight into how the Chinese view our "human rights record":

http://english.people.com.cn/200304/03/eng20030403_114521.shtml

We don't owe Mexicans a blasted thing. We certainly don't owe them "services, or benefits" when providing them denies services and benefits to the WHITES who built and paid for it in the first place, when we're already BROKE, and when providing them contributes to their own criminality

HERE! HERE!!

Couldn't agree with you more if I had written it myself!

Since 9/11, it doesn't make any sense at all to keep ILLEGAL (key word) aliens here. I know that now we are supposed to call them "undocumented workers" but they are still ILLEGAL.>>

As I scrolled back to read the beginning of this blog, I decided to respond to yours just because I can't stand to read through all the rest - I skipped to the end! I can't stand to read it because as you said, the word ILLEGAL is the key here. The fact that people actually try to write in here and argue that this illegal activity should be condoned is something I will never understand. Thank God they are in the minority. Illegal in anything else and there is no leeway, so why are we hedging on this? I refuse to stoop to calling people who are ILLEGALLY entering our country, ILLEGALLY working here, UNCONSCIONABLY using our health benefits and services, and ILLEGALLY hiding and staying here, "undocumented workers". What a JOKE! They are CRIMINALS - ILLEGALLY HERE - It does not take a rocket-scientist to see this, yet our government wants to BRAINWASH us little by little into using terms like "undocumented workers" and making us believe there is something wrong with anyone who thinks these people should be deported. PLEASE - how stupid do they think we are? Well, I guess pretty stupid because we still have a small percentage of the public who has swallowed this hogwash.

I am sorry that Mexico is such a horrendous place to live, but so are many other places - but letting them in here is just going to turn our country into a shabby place to live, as it has already done in many of the small border towns and parts of California, Texas and Arizona. We are all a part of this country, so letting the states that are on the border handle this crisis is unfair! We also have an armed Mexican mafia rising up and spreading throughout our country that many sleeping Americans don't see or don't want to know about. That's right, bury the head in the sand until it is a real problem, then blame everybody else for letting it happen. 

 START FINING AND IMPRISONING THOSE IN THE COMPANIES THAT ARE HIRING THESE PEOPLE ILLEGALLY!!!! Perhaps shipping them out to a Mexican prison would help them to see that hiring illegals is, well. . . ..ILLEGAL!!!

================================

Actually, Mexico is a very nice place to live, as I live there on occasion and enjoy many things about Mexico that can't be enjoyed here. Even though not everyone in Mexico can live like an American can live there, most Mexicans in Mexico have a higher quality of life than Mexicans who come here.

The ONLY reason they come here is the social transfer payments [read: welfare, medicare, etc.]. Even Mexican-jammed California passed a resolution to deny them those benefits, but a federal "judge" decided that what three quarters of the CITIZENS WANT is "unconsitutional" and what the MINORITY OF ILLEGAL ALIENS WANT was "constitutional". You know where she can smoke that pipe!

It's this sole female federal "judge" who can be pointed to as the one who prevented the inevitible--the removal of the ILLEGAL ALIENS, and all associated with them, to Mexico, and blacks to Africa http://blackexile.com

The category called "Hispanics", which is mostly Indians from Mexico with not a trace of Hispanic blood in their lineage, cost $230 billion more in social transfer payments than they contribute to GDP, annually. With blacks, the difference if $850 billion. It's why we're broke http://fathersmanifesto.net/blackcosts.htm

Can an 8% minority of the population who're here illegally beat the 92% who're here legally in a contest of constitutionality? According to this lame brained female judge they can, and did. She needs to go to Mexico with the Mexicans, not here.

Terry

The ONLY reason they come here is the social transfer payments [read: welfare, medicare, etc.]. Even Mexican-jammed California passed a resolution to deny them those benefits, but a federal "judge" decided that what three quarters of the CITIZENS WANT is "unconsitutional" and what the MINORITY OF ILLEGAL ALIENS WANT was "constitutional". You know where she can smoke that pipe!

It's this sole female federal "judge" who can be pointed to as the one who prevented the inevitible--the removal of the ILLEGAL ALIENS, and all associated with them, to Mexico, and blacks to Africa http://blackexile.com

The category called "Hispanics", which is mostly Indians from Mexico with not a trace of Hispanic blood in their lineage, cost $230 billion more in social transfer payments than they contribute to GDP, annually. With blacks, the difference if $850 billion. It's why we're broke http://fathersmanifesto.net/blackcosts.htm

Can an 8% minority of the population who're here illegally beat the 92% who're here legally in a contest of constitutionality? According to this lame brained female judge they can, and did. She needs to go to Mexico with the Mexicans, not here.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just realized that I never finished the point, which is that all we need to do to get the illegal aliens, as well as lots of Mexicans who're here legally, back to Mexico, is simply to cut off ***all*** payments to them. They never contributed to it in the first place, REAL Americans who did contribute can't benefit from those contributions because they're being wasted on Mexicans, and we don't owe anybody whose ancestors attacked the Alamo a durn thing.

Another point. Many of these illegal aliens use OUR tax dollars to buy brand new JAPANESE cars, which means that many of those welfare dollars actually end up in Japanese banks. We get the worst end of the stick four ways to Sunday:

1) We get Indians pretending to be Mexicans who're pretending to be Hispanics who're pretending to be Whites going to school with our children.

2) We pay for ALL of their benefits, including education which doesn't do anything anyway.

3) Whatever they have left over, which seems to be a lot, is used to buy Japanese cars which endanger our lives on OUR highways.

4) The final depositor is a Japanese bank which is already flooded with money http://fathersmanifesto.net/japanmonetarybase.htm

Terry

as for the legal aliens they pay taxes while they live here. in case if all legal aliens are to be deported. how about deporting you. since your family came here. well we don't know if they were here legally or not. lets say not

a reply to:

Whatever they have left over, which seems to be a lot, is used to buy Japanese cars which endanger our lives on OUR highways.

as well as lots of Mexicans who're here legally, back to Mexico, is simply to cut off ***all*** payments to them. They never contributed to it in the first place, REAL Americans who did contribute can't benefit from those contributions because they're being wasted on Mexicans, and we don't owe anybody whose ancestors attacked the Alamo a durn thing

as for the legal aliens they pay taxes while they live here. in case if all legal aliens are to be deported. how about deporting you. since your family came here. well we don't know if they were here legally or not. lets say not

==============================================

The way Mexicans drive endanger everyone's lives, including their own. Let them kill each other in Mexico, not here.

If you take the total earnings of ALL Hispanics, not just Mexicans, and subtract from that the social transfer payments to all Hispanics, you have a negative figure of $230 billion. This means that each working White man in this country must earn $5,750 each year JUST to pay JUST the taxes which fund JUST the welfare which is paid JUST to Hispanics.

For what? War retributions for the Alamo?

http://fathersmanifesto.net/blackcosts.htm

Terry

plus as for driving. it just ain't the mexicans that are bad drivers. there is alot of bad drivers no matter what nationality they have for their ancestry. are you gonna insist that they should be shipped back to the countries their ancestors came from??. i'm also including white folk here too

a reply to:

The way Mexicans drive endanger everyone's lives, including their own. Let them kill each other in Mexico, not here..

For what? War retributions for the Alamo?

http://fathersmanifesto.net/blackcosts.htm

Whoa, Terry! You showed earlier displeasure with the Chinese, showed anger with the Blacks, and now even more tee'd with the Mexicans/Hispanics who are supposedly sucking the U.S. dry via the welfare system without paying anything back. You may as well include the po' Whites, the supposed "White Trash" that other whites refer to, who live in them hills, and in major cities throughout the U.S. Why, even in Hawaii, there is a huge population of very healthy whites living the good life, and on welfare. Bet you know of some single-parent white women too, who depend on Uncle Sam. It's simply that the great U.S. has such a great "safety net" for people that is readily abused, and not sufficiently monitored to properly deal with "deadbeats." I respect your views, though. Peace.

=========================================

If I thought that every dime I spent on taxes helped some White father of my own race, I'd gladly pay it. The mere thought that it subsidizes single mother households, or blacks, or Chinese, Mexicans, blacks, or any other race which views Whites as the devil personnified, is repugnant.

What's even worse is that I KNOW blacks who receive this welfare, and I've WITNESSED how it destroyed the black family. The wiberal notion that we're helping blacks by paying black mothers 25% more in welfare than if they'd just stayed married to the father of her children DESTROYED THE BLACK FAMILY.

None of that worked, and not a single other great idea we come up can, other than http://blackexile.com

Terry

"WHEN IS THE NEXT CROSS BURNIN'?"

======================================================

When's your next bra burning?

Terry

Shoot 'em as they cross the border.>>

in the front when entering, and in the back when leaving?

i thought so.

women and children will be easier targets.

11 million rounds. i'm sure you can contribute a few thousand from your arsenal.

kind regards,

casimir

===================================

The problem is that most Mexicans don't hold taxpaying jobs and you'd miss at least 95% of them.

In spite of all the media hoopla about Mexicans being so productive, the real reason they come here is the welfare, not the jobs. If Mexicans were so productive, Tijuana wouldn't look like it's going to collapse during the next strong wind.

Mexicans receive $230 billion more in social transfer payments than they contribute to GDP, which is $19,167 per illegal alien.

Shoot, if Mexico paid you half that much just so you could sit on your butt and drink tequila, wouldn't you go there? Or a third as much?

Terry

####

"If Mexicans were so productive, Tijuana wouldn't look like it's going to collapse during the next strong wind."

JOEY Replies:

Does ####?

Nevermind.

Have you ever been to Tijuana Cletus?

Most likely dropping off your wife/daughter on her corner and picking up your mother/sister from hers after her shift is over.

What is it like to be afraid that the first strong wind will blow your single-wide trailer away?

Please leave the barnyard animals alone.


JOEY

The next initiative won't fail, because 90% SUPPORT IT http://blackexile.com

Terry

"....along with the moronic Mexicans who should never have been let in the front door in the first place, and some stupid female "federal judge who doesn't have any more brains than you do..." 

Hey little Miss Terri, why don't you have someone read to you a history book about who was here first? You will be surprised who exactly was "let in the front door" in the first place! You see, it seems that those "moronic Mexicans" were here long before any of your kind brought down property values!

As for that "female federal judge" not having any more brains than I do...well, I'll just take that as a compliment. So I guess we can add misogyny to your other wonderful attributes of racism and ignorance. 

Please continue posting as much as the nice Library lady allows, ####

All my best,

JOEY

==================================================

Who won the war is what counts, not who got there first.

The savage little Indians thought they could get away with cutting the legs off White settlers, impaling their torsos on carts so they could roll them around the teepee, and torture them to death.

The Cavalry had a different idea.

Our only mistake was leaving a few of them alive, based on some misguided notion of Christian charity. It's their savage Indian descendants who now come to the US as "Mexicans", who pretend to be Hispanics, who pretend to be Whites--but who commit almost as much crime as blacks

http://blackexile.com

Terry

"Our only mistake was leaving a few of them alive..."

That wasn't our only mistake ####, not by a long shot!

####

JOEY

actually they did not strike at us till we hit them first. and you forget if rumours have it true. alot of them have white blood in them due to them taking kids and women into their families. which is alot more charitable than what was done to them

a reply to:

The savage little Indians thought they could get away with cutting the legs off White settlers, impaling their torsos on carts so they could roll them around the teepee, and torture them to death.

The Cavalry had a different idea.

Our only mistake was leaving a few of them alive, based on some misguided notion of Christian charity. It's their savage Indian descendants who now come to the US as "Mexicans", who pretend to be Hispanics, who pretend to be Whites--but who commit almost as much crime as blacks

=========================================

Well, you finally got something right. According to the FBI web site, blacks killed 600,000 Americans JUST in the last 4 decades, which is 300 TIMES as many as have died in a war zone in Iraq.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/ageracesex.htm

That's right. The FBI itself reports that American blacks killed 300 TIMES as many as died in a war in Iraq, so who's the REAL enemy now? The fact that 420,000 of their victims were other blacks doesn't bother you at all, does it, joey?

http://blackexile.com

Terry