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hiKelleigh
Pretzelizing the Holy Bible
Twisting the Holy Bible into a Pretzel
"Men are like wine. They start out fruity and then turn full-bodied
with age until they go all sour and vinegary and give you a
headache."
"If he cannot find a man willing to stand, then he will use a
woman", Momma C
Kelleigh replied: "Amen Momma C!"
| Kelleigh |
God |
Comment |
| The unfermented wine that He provided for the
wedding guests was a wholesome and refreshing drink, neither wine
nor strong drink. |
John 2:9-10 When the
ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was:
(but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the
bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine;
and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now |
By claiming that the wine which Jesus made was grape juice, and not even
better wine than the original which made them "well drunk", Kelleigh infers that
Jesus LIED or was at least disingenuous to the wedding party. |
| Christ never places before men that which would be a temptation |
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Mat 10:34 |
The Holy Bible warns us not to drink wine in the process of
ferementation, Kelleigh claims that it says not to drink wine at all. |
| He seeks ever to bless |
Joh 8:44 Ye [jews] are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. |
I have been doing some research into the Passover and how
it is celebrated by the Jews. I have run across something interesting. They have strict
rules about the strength of the wine. It is not to be deluted down with grape juice unless
you have some medical reason or cannot afford the proper wine. Since we know Jesus
observed the Passover at least 33 times... Well I just find that fact of interest in this
debate. Dennis |
| Sea replied: "I was about to give up on the idea of Jesus being
the promised Messiah. So many on this forum have insisted that Jesus made booze for
an already intoxicated crowd, and had me at my wits end. I KNOW the Savior would not do
this and you have made an excellent argument" |
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set
forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine
until now |
It's a straw man argument to claim that "well drunk" means
intoxicated so that the argument can be made that Jesus wouldn't have dared subject His
people to drunkeness. It again infers Jesus LIED or was disingenuous, which is even
more egregious than misrepresenting Scripture in the first place. |
| The wine that Christ made from water at the
marriage feast of Cana was the pure juice of the grape |
when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine
until now Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man
gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified
of her children. |
What kind of wedding party would be so drunk that they couldn't tell the
difference between wine and water? Why would the jews accuse John the Baptist of
being a winebibber if he was drinking only grape juice? Is it only jews who make
such an issue of wine, and misrepresent Jesus in order to do so? |
| Prov 23:31 Don't even look at fermented wine, yet alone drink it! |
(KJV) Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color
in the cup, when it moveth itself aright [note: the question about which version
Kelleigh is reading from was never answered. |
This verse says not to drink "wine WHEN it ... moveth itself
aright", which is DURING the fermentation process. If the warning was not drink
wine BEFORE it's fermented, then it cannot possibly say not to drink wine at all as
Kelleigh's version of Scripture reads. |
| God did not create poisonous plants, that is a result of the entrance of
sin to this world. God did not create fermented grapes that is a technology developed by
man. |
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7 |
Fermentation is a biological process. If I remember correctly, microbes
consume sugars and discharge the substance that we call alcohol. My mom once called it
"bacteria urine" to disuade me from indulging... Berean Joe |
| New Webster Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language (1971) defines
"must" as "Wine or juice pressed from the grapes
but not fermented." This definition clearly equates "wine"
with grape juice. |
G3631, oinos, oy'-nos,
A primary word (or perhaps of Hebrew origin [H3196]); "wine" (literally or
figuratively): - wine. H3196, yayin,
yah'-yin, From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine
(as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber]. |
Must cannot be used to make grape juice. It can only be used to make
wine. Must includes the stems, skins, seeds, and other parts of the grape required
to make good wine. It's incorrect to infer from this that must and wine are the same
thing, as they are at two different stages of the fermentation process. |
| The problem is that people have taken the contempory (modern) meaning of
the word (whether in Hebrew, Greek, Latin or English) -as an intoxicating beverage-and
have made it the only definition of the word. That is incorrect scholarship! It is
inaccurate both biblically and secularly, and it is inaccurate in the English language
historically |
Genesis 9:20 -22 And Noah began to be an
husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he
was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his
father, and told his two brethren without. |
Oxford English Dictionary definition of "wine":
"the fermented juice of the grape used as a beverage" |
| Josephus' statement offers another significant insight, namely, that it
was customary long before Israel became a nation to squeeze the juice from grapes and
drink it immediately in its fresh, unfermented state. This is what Josephus called
gleukos, the term which our English translators render "wine"
or "new wine" in Acts 2:13. Does not this translation
support the conclusion that unfermented grape juice was called "wine"
in older English usage? |
Luke 12:1 "In
the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people,
insomuch that they trod one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all,
Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy." |
Josephus was a jew and an admitted Pharisee, and this is precisely the
leaven of the Pharisees which Jesus warned us about. Is it only Pharisees who
promote the notion that Israelites are "winebibbers" because they drink wine?? |
| Alcohol is an expensive luxury. |
Proverbs 31:7 Let him
drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more. |
Alcohol is incredibly cheap. What's expensive are the monumental
taxes levied on alcohol by teetotallers, which are then used to subsidize single mother
households, each of which does more damage to society than a suptertanker load of alcohol
ever could |
| The passage of scripture that gives the account of the
wedding at Cana DOES NOT provide evidence that Christ provided intoxicating
wine to the wedding guests. |
Num 6:20-21 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering
before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and
after that the Nazarite may drink wine. This is the law of the Nazarite who hath vowed,
and of his offering unto the LORD for his separation, beside that that his hand shall get:
according to the vow which he vowed, so he must do after the law of his separation. |
If this wine drunk by Nazarites is simply grape juice, then why prevent
him from drinking it in the first place? Why should he have to go through such an
elaborate and complicated ritual before being able to drink wine again? Would Jesus of
Nazareth have made a mockery of the Nazarite ritual, as well as of God's Law, by serving
grape juice? |
| Alcohol is huge moral curse to the human race |
Num 6:3 He shall
separate [himself] from
wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink,
neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. |
the ritual that you mention is the ritual that is performed when a person
has reached the end of the time for their vow. after the time of their vow was completed,
they performed the ritual and then they could drink wine again. also a person on a
nazarite vow not only did not drink wine but also did not drink grape juice of even eat
grapes- the apple |
| It was Christ who directed that John the Baptist would drink neither wine nor strong drink |
1 Timothy 5:23 Drink
no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
|
It was Jesus who ordered the servants to make wine, not
grape juice, from water.Would those who claim that Scripture says something
different than what we think it means please explain how and why they arrived at their
positions? |
| Alcohol is huge moral curse to the human race (FOOD is not
a moral issue). |
Hos 9:3-4 They shall
not dwell in the LORD's land; but Ephraim shall return to Egypt, and they shall eat
unclean things in
Assyria. They shall not offer wine offerings to the LORD, neither shall they be pleasing unto him: their sacrifices shall be unto them as the bread of mourners; all
that eat thereof shall be polluted |
God punished Israel by refusing to accept wine and food offerings from
them. If wine was a "moral curse", then God certainly would NEVER have
accepted a wine offering. 90 million Americans are now obese, 9,000 TIMES as many as
die annually from cirrhosis, making food a 9,000X greater curse (or danger) to this nation
than wine. |
| "Both are at fault" [when] a beautiful woman with
a lovely shape wears suggestive, immodest clothing. She is thus placing a temptation
before men both single and married to impure thoughts and/or sinful actions. Are their
thoughts and/or actions her fault? Or, The men's fault? Or both? |
Tit 2:5-6 [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at
home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Young
men likewise exhort to be sober minded. |
The woman is at fault. Had the woman obeyed God's Word, the man
would not have sinned in the first place. To say "both are at fault" is
like blaming the telephone pole because the car ran into it. |
| I'm beginning to see that each side of this question can
support their view by quoting scripture, examining the original languages, appealing to
logic and still arrive at two different conclusions. I believe this is due to differences
in each persons or group's Biblical world view. |
2Ti 3:6-7 For of this
sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led
away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the
truth. |
God is not double minded. Neither is His Law. There's only one
truth in His Law. Either one position is truth, or the other one is, but both will
never be truth. |
Num 6:3 He shall separate [himself] from wine and strong
drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he
drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. Num 6:4 All the days of his separation shall he eat
nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.
- wine
- strong drink
- vinegar of wine
- vinegar of strong drink
- liquor of grapes
- moist grapes
- dried grapes
"Strong drink" is a reference to alcohol which is fermented from grains, like
hops, barley, wheat, and rice, which today is called beer, scotch, whiskey, and saki.
"Liquor of grape" is a reference to liqueurs like brandy and cognac.
Liqueurs, vinegar of wine and vinegar of strong drink contain alcohol, and moist
grapes and dried grapes will ferment naturally if not stored properly, which explains why
a Nazarite should not drink or eat it during the days of his separation.
But after the days of his separation, his head is shaven, his hair is offered as a
sacrifice, other rituals are performed, and Scripture says that he can then drink wine:
Num 6:20 And the priest shall wave
them for a wave
offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the
Nazarite may drink wine.
If he's now permitted to drink wine, it's presumed that he's now permitted to
eat and drink the other items on the above list, as there is no other verse
suggesting that these other items are prohibited (to either Nazarites or to ordinary
Israelites). If there was a distinction between "fermented wine" and
"unfermented wine", this would be precisely the place to mention it. But
there was no mention of "unfermented wine" then, it's been an oxymoron ever
since, and today "wine" is defined simply as "the fermented juice of the
grape used as a beverage".
The fact that a Nazarite was prohibited from drinking wine is no more an indictment of
wine than fasting is an indictment of food, or putting out the leavened bread for a week
is an indictment of yeast. Everything has its place in God's Orderly Arrangement,
including wine and alcohol. If it was proper then to have some Israelites abstain
from alcohol for a period of time, then it's probably proper to do so today. But to
suggest that *everyone* should be prohibited from drinking wine, *all* the time, is to
make a mockery of God, His Law, Nazarites, and Jesus.
More Kelleigh Pretzels:
Proverbs 31
A good woman does good all the days of her life.
Alcohol has not brought good to society.
A good woman brings prosperity to her household.
Alcohol does not bring prosperity to most families,
often the
opposite.
A good woman is thrifty
Alcohol is an expensive luxury.
A good woman is industrious and not given to
lethargy.
Alcohol induces lethargy, fatigue & laziness.
A good woman is girded with strength.
Alcohol weakens.
A good woman helps the poor and needy.
Alcohol as a predilection for ruining the lives of
the poor & needy.
A good woman brings honor to her husband.
Alcohol seldom brings honor to those who drink it
(unless the
individual is a rock star).
A good woman is wise.
Alcohol lessens intelligent conversation and benumbs
the brain.
A good woman is called blessed.
Alcohol is not blessed.
And would you please try to get my forum name right
next time!
Kelleigh.
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